Media story on encryption

[AK9R]

ISP was caught a bit off-guard today to see Hendricks County in pursuit on I-465. At one point, a Trooper said he wasn't hearing a thing on Hendricks County Dispatch.

You would think that Hendricks Communications would have provided the necessary keys to ISP so that troopers who work in the county can have their radios programmed access to 32P-DSP. I'm a bit amused that ISP acts like they weren't aware that Hendricks went encrypted.

With Hendricks County being encrypted, can they patch to a non-encrypted talkgroup.

Or, Hendricks County units could move to a non-encrypted talkgroup, like one of the H mutual aid TGs, when they pursue someone out of their county.

But, it's easy for us to sit in front of our computer screens and criticize.

 

[gmclam]

I, once again, extend the challenge to any scanner listener to please post their personal information on this site:
Full legal name
Drivers License Number
Description, including height, weight, color hair, color eyes, any unique identifying features.
Mailing Address
Date of Birth
Full criminal history
Past interactions with law enforcement
If they own firearms
License number, VIN, Make, model, color of the vehicle you drive.
Current health issues with full details.

Funny thing is, each time I ask this, no one does it. I wonder why?

I posted a reply. Did you see it? You had to be "listening" at the moment I did it. When posting online, the data is there "forever". Big difference.

I feel that one major issue driving this is the number of people that show up at an incident and/or convey what they've heard to others. Seems everyone wants a bunch of followers and has NO CLUE as to the harm they are doing by illegally sharing what they've monitored.

 

[cavmedic]

I, once again, extend the challenge to any scanner listener to please post their personal information on this site:
Full legal name
Drivers License Number
Description, including height, weight, color hair, color eyes, any unique identifying features.
Mailing Address
Date of Birth
Full criminal history
Past interactions with law enforcement
If they own firearms
License number, VIN, Make, model, color of the vehicle you drive.
Current health issues with full details.

Funny thing is, each time I ask this, no one does it. I wonder why?

Articulate the crime you suspect me of committing or about to commit, until then I am under no legal obligation to ID my self. Am i being detained or am I free to go?

 

[mmckenna]

I posted a reply. Did you see it? You had to be "listening" at the moment I did it. When posting online, the data is there "forever". Big difference.

No, but my friend caught it, and Broadcastify recorded it.

By the way, thanks for the new big screen TV, just in time for the super bowl!

 

[mmckenna]

Articulate the crime you suspect me of committing or about to commit,

Probable cause. Your skin color was the wrong one, you were in the wrong part of town, you were driving the wrong car, you looked like a guy we were looking for, your tail light was out, you had a mental health emergency, you had a bad reaction to some medication, you left the bar at the wrong hour, your tire touched the yellow line when you went around that curve, so you got run through the system.

Thanks for buying me the new kegerator to go with the new TV that GM bought me.

 

[12dbsinad]

Many area small Dept's around here still put out a "police log" and even post it on FB. Your name and address will show up, was VERY common for years across the Country, never any problems. If my personal info is going to be used for fraudulent acts it's going to be because I'm on here, or using the internet in general. I'm not concerned about my name or OLN (they never run SSN's here) being said over the air. I'm afraid of paying a bill online or buying something.

Just like gun laws, you typically only hear one side of the story about how civilians listening to a scanner actually aided in a serious crime. It's not something that recorded or documented. It does in fact happen contrary to popular believe.

 

[mmckenna]

It does in fact happen contrary to popular believe.

I don't disagree.

I think it's important to realize that scanner listeners are a very small segment of the population. While scanner listeners may be able to help on occasion, imagine how many more "helpers" they could get if they used a communications media that reached many orders of magnitude more people?

In other words, if law enforcement wants help, they have ways to ask for it. Usually they don't want untrained people involved. And scanner listeners have zero training.

 

[12dbsinad]

I don't disagree.

I think it's important to realize that scanner listeners are a very small segment of the population. While scanner listeners may be able to help on occasion, imagine how many more "helpers" they could get if they used a communications media that reached many orders of magnitude more people?

In other words, if law enforcement wants help, they have ways to ask for it. Usually they don't want untrained people involved. And scanner listeners have zero training.

True, but remember many news outlets get their info from scanners as well. It's in real time (or slight delay), it's not after the fact which would be the case once the agency puts out a press release. Someone with a scanner would not be able to dial 911 and say, "Hey, the shooter with the gun is running down my street at XXXX address!" or, "I'm following the vehicle that you're looking for in regards to the bank robbery". Trained or not decent humans can and will do this because they are there anyways whether they like it or not. It does happen. The percentage is unknown since it's not documented.

I'll also add that it really all depends on the area. Some LE agencies are very community oriented and even host their own feeds for people to listen. There are vast differences on how this is handled depending on your location.

 

[jerrywhitworth]

What I don't understand is why you never hear stories about these systems being decrypted.You find all kinds of seriously illegal stuff on the net. I'd love to see the Chinese come up with some software to decrypt Motorola's ADP and that 40 bit DMR encryption and send it to America just like they send all that fentanyl.

 

[mmckenna]

I'll also add that it really all depends on the area. Some LE agencies are very community oriented and even host their own feeds for people to listen. There are vast differences on how this is handled depending on your location.

Maybe I'm just fortunate in that local agencies communicate very well via social media, reverse 911 and other means. They know that if they want help or want to get information to the general public, relying on scanners isn't going to be effective.
More often than not, they warn the public to stay out of the way and let the professionals do their job.

The perceived benefit of scanner listeners being their eyes/ears isn't as beneficial as encryption in the eyes of law enforcement.

 

[mmckenna]

What I don't understand is why you never hear stories about these systems being decrypted.You find all kinds of seriously illegal stuff on the net. I'd love to see the Chinese come up with some software to decrypt Motorola's ADP and that 40 bit DMR encryption and send it to America just like they send all that fentanyl.

Because it is not easy to do, and there are import/export restrictions.
I recently had to purchase a couple of HF radios from Codan in Australia. The radios have AES256 in them. The paperwork I had to fill out for the Australian DOD was interesting...

 

[12dbsinad]

Maybe I'm just fortunate in that local agencies communicate very well via social media, reverse 911 and other means. They know that if they want help or want to get information to the general public, relying on scanners isn't going to be effective.
More often than not, they warn the public to stay out of the way and let the professionals do their job.

The perceived benefit of scanner listeners being their eyes/ears isn't as beneficial as encryption in the eyes of law enforcement.

Fortunate or not, what your view is is not a blanket statement on what every agencies does, or feels. It may be in your area however. Trust me, I know. We get calls from Dept's asking how they can set-up a feed because they run a community policing program and want the public to listen. Call it wrong, but in my area this happens.

 

[mmckenna]

Call it wrong, but in my area this happens.

I won't call it wrong. It has it's place, when used correctly.
The requirements for protecting CJI/PII are real, and they are not going away.

I'm not saying everything needs to be encrypted, I am (sort of) OK with leaving primary dispatch in the clear, where that works. But like I've said before, not all agencies have multi-channel systems, or access to trunked systems. There's a fair amount of agencies (my town included) that only have one channel.

Encryption has its place, I don't think anyone who's got a bit of background in this field will deny that.

 

[12dbsinad]

Encryption has its place, I don't think anyone who's got a bit of background in this field will deny that.

Sure, of course it has a place. I live in small town America, most are using conventional radio systems either digital or analog (A lot are still analog) with only the larger Cities on TRS. Anyway, I appreciate the healthy debate we can and always have been able to do. I'm more so just giving viewpoints from area's that are clearly vastly different than your area. With that I'm going to digress because I feel I am stating to derail the thread into another "E" debate and that's not my intentions. Be safe out there and I'll catch ya on the other threads!

 

[mmckenna]

Yeah, it's cool. I think it is important to discuss this stuff so others can understand why it happens. Without looking at both sides of the debate, RadioReference just becomes another internet echo chamber where only one point of view exists.

Some of the new logging recorders used in dispatch centers have the ability to stream delayed traffic to the internets. Where appropriate, this is probably a good solution for many agencies. A suitable delay where needed, live streaming where appropriate, and a dispatcher/supervisor can easily click a button and stop it when appropriate.

As for PII/CJI, that's been decided, it's just a case of when, at this point.

Scanners are how I got my start, so I do understand the frustration.

 

[Mattnik]

ISP was caught a bit off-guard today to see Hendricks County in pursuit on I-465. With Hendricks County being encrypted, can they patch to a non-encrypted talkgroup. At one point, a Trooper said he wasn't hearing a thing on Hendricks County Dispatch.

They can patch encrypted and non encrypted talkgroups at will. The keys reside in the radio, not the repeaters. In fact, the reason some conversations are only encrypted on one side is usually not because one is encrypted and one isn't, it's that unless the radio channel is bootstrapped as ENC, most users don't bother to watch for the flashing Ø symbol that accompanies encrypted signal. So they users don't realize that one of their own hasn't switched their encryption on.

IOW, radio 1 decrypts the signal even when radio 1 is set to non-encrypted.

That is why the channels are usually bootstrapped as encrypted if security is a major concern. The talkgroup really doesn't matter, just the setting on the little dial.

Also, my agency's Motorola radios are set up to ignore encrypted traffic they don't have the keys for. So if @milf was talking to @belvdr using key 5, and my radio only has keys 1-4, I'll never even hear the garbled traffic.

HTH

Matt

 

[west-pac]

ISP was caught a bit off-guard today to see Hendricks County in pursuit on I-465. With Hendricks County being encrypted, can they patch to a non-encrypted talkgroup. At one point, a Trooper said he wasn't hearing a thing on Hendricks County Dispatch.

This same situation happen last night between Huntington and Wabash counties. Huntington County went encrypted 3 weeks ago. A pursuit started in Huntington County and went into Wabash County. The Huntington units did not switch to a non-encrypted TG, nor were any TGs patched. The result was several Huntington police vehicles ran over stop sticks in Wabash County. As policy, ISP stayed out of the action, but in the area. All radio traffic was relayed between the Wabash, Huntington, and ISP dispatchers, to their respective units.

Huntington County normally posts eventful incidents on their fb page, however, I'm not surprised that this one did not. They likely don't want to hear how encryption made matters worse (assisting agencies not being able to listening in) and it ended up costing the taxpayers more money (towing and tires).

Hopefully they'll be able to debrief and figure out how not to have those communication problems again.

 

[ctiller]

This same situation happen last night between Huntington and Wabash counties. Huntington County went encrypted 3 weeks ago. A pursuit started in Huntington County and went into Wabash County. The Huntington units did not switch to a non-encrypted TG, nor were any TGs patched. The result was several Huntington police vehicles ran over stop sticks in Wabash County. As policy, ISP stayed out of the action, but in the area. All radio traffic was relayed between the Wabash, Huntington, and ISP dispatchers, to their respective units.

Huntington County normally posts eventful incidents on their fb page, however, I'm not surprised that this one did not. They likely don't want to hear how encryption made matters worse (assisting agencies not being able to listening in) and it ended up costing the taxpayers more money (towing and tires).

Hopefully they'll be able to debrief and figure out how not to have those communication problems again.

wow that's definitely a Con on the pro/con paper thanks for sharing

 

[marcotor]

wow that's definitely a Con on the pro/con paper thanks for sharing

But that isn't really an encryption issue, is it?

The encryption is working just fine for the agency. The poor planning/politics/egos issue is what gets in the way. For I can tell you in the last month there have been 5 incidents where my county (full encryption) went out of the jurisdiction into neighboring counties (mix of encryption and non) and managed to coordinate, maintain, and seamlessly integrate communications between all the agencies that ended up involved. Here they train just for those specific scenarios, and it works. When other jurisdictions need assistance, they come up on the VHF, UHF, or 800 access channel and ask for it.

I am not a fan of encryption, particularly since I can't listen where I live at all, but some of the reasons that are put forth usually are just... silly, to me. Or based on billion dollar concerns who need to feed a public hungry for "as it happens" action 24/7 as they move to more and more "news" programming - which is quite cost-effective when compared to producing original programming. Just my nickel!

 

[ctiller]

But that isn't really an encryption issue, is it?

The encryption is working just fine for the agency. The poor planning/politics/egos issue is what gets in the way. For I can tell you in the last month there have been 5 incidents where my county (full encryption) went out of the jurisdiction into neighboring counties (mix of encryption and non) and managed to coordinate, maintain, and seamlessly integrate communications between all the agencies that ended up involved. Here they train just for those specific scenarios, and it works. When other jurisdictions need assistance, they come up on the VHF, UHF, or 800 access channel and ask for it.

I am not a fan of encryption, particularly since I can't listen where I live at all, but some of the reasons that are put forth usually are just... silly, to me. Or based on billion dollar concerns who need to feed a public hungry for "as it happens" action 24/7 as they move to more and more "news" programming - which is quite cost-effective when compared to producing original programming. Just my nickel!

One of the arguments on this thread in favor of full encryption is "ease of use" and so they don't have to train people to use a system that has both encrypted and unencrypted channels. Now you have to worry about these other agencies having the right keys and such. But yes I'd agree its bad coordination as well, just now this is another layer of complexity IMO.