Milwaukee Fire?

ts442k9

Newbie
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
52
Reaction score
16
Location
Rolling Hills
I’m confused. When MFD switched to closed sky, they got a boatload of talkgroups. They seemed to have carried that over to their new P25 system with 143 talkgroups plus their conventional fireground channels (15.)

Why on earth do they need so many talkgroups? They can I’m not saying they can’t but in comparison, Detroit has 19 talkgroups and about 10 fireground channels.

MFD’s minimum staffing is 213 Firefighters/Officers/Batt Chiefs and Medics. If you remove the Med units that are on a different system, pretty much every firefighter gets a talkgroup.

If anyone has the reasoning behind this I’d be curious to know why.
 

CrabbyMilton

Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
968
Reaction score
455
That's the jackpot question. I could understand if this was NYC, LA, or Chicago but it does seem like too much. Besides, they have access to those low power TAC channels anyway. But that's Milwaukee for you.
 

19-685

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2023
Messages
295
Reaction score
255
Location
Monitoring Attack Plan R on CRM-114 Discriminator
A few random thoughts... no opinions, rants or facts otherwise implied... just an outsider looking in...

= = = = =

Muscle Memory.... Or "That's How We've Always Done It...

Once someone learns how to navigate all those zones (aka Harris calls them Profiles) and talkgroups in a radio, it's easier to keep things the same on a new radio system so you don't have to retrain / relearn something new.

Still one would have to ask the big question... how does a firefighter lay down his hose in order to navigate to Profile X, Talkgroup Y in a flash-over situation?

And how often does he/she REALLY perform that type of radio operation under far less strenuous events?

Regardless... too complicated for effective utilization !!!!

= = = = =

Pure Laziness

No one - at any level - wanted to take a serious look at the old system, radio setup, and radio procedures while asking critical questions like "what works well", "do even use Talkgroup ABC123", "what do our end users think", or "can we simplify" ?

Same thing applies to programming - easier to "cut and paste" vs think.

With professional sports team events, the state fair, the Milwaukee Mile raceway, weekly summer festivals at the Summerfest Grounds, the Milwaukee Air and Water Show, and the 2024 political convention - has there ever been a TRUE review of interoperable communications in this town???

= = = = =

New Toys... Fully Loaded

Everyone understands that these new radios have a lot of capacity for zones/channels/talkgroups - we all get that.

L3Harris (formerly GE/Ericcson), Motorola, JVC Kenwood (formerly EF Johnson), Tait, and BK all have similar bells and whistles - so that's an equal playing field.

But just because you have that capacity, doesn't mean you need to fill it to the brim.

Yeah, there's the NIFOG interoperability talkgroups and/or statewide standard interop talkgroups.

Yeah there's always the POSSIBILITY that you'll get deployed ANYWHERE/ANYTIME... but didn't MARC1 work just as well???

Wouldn't money be better spent on NEW FIRE APPARATUS??? The MFD fleet is old and needs replacing MORE THAN NEW RADIOS!

= = = = =

Lack of An Interoperability Mindset Across Agencies

Not just the city, but county/regional/statewide there's a whole lot of "it's my turf" attitude.

In the Southeast Region:
Milwaukee is on its own P-25 System.
Milwaukee County and Waukesha County share their P-25 System (one shining example).
Ozaukee County is on their own P-25 System.
Walworth County is on their own P-25 System.

Look at the state capitol: Dane County (on VHF), Madison (on 800 Mhz), and state on WISCOM.

Look at other surrounding states in the Midwest and one can quickly see how true Interoperability and shared systems do indeed work... and work quite well...

STARCOM21, Michigan MPSCS, Indiana SAFE-T, Ohio MARCS, Minnesota ARMER.

While nothing's perfect, but there's a lot of better ways to skin this cat... and most of those systems are 20+ years old, have been tried and proven in all range of incidents, and host agencies at all levels on a 24/365 basis.

WISCOM never worked right, had some pretty horrendous installations.

It never was fully utilized at any real "statewide" level.

In the Milwaukee Metro Area, just two (2) talkgroups are routinely used: WSP SE Dispatch and R-Call 21 (only during severe weather).

All the other "so-callled" WISCOM talkgroups are just re-transmitted patches from other systems.

Other agencies use legacy systems or simply do not use radio communications - ie cellular.

Unsure if the new 700Mhz state system will be any better or solve this without agreed to POLICY and DIRECTION to back up the system capabilities from all stakeholders.

= = = = =

Again, just random thoughts.... I'll step off the soapbox for now....
 

rjschilder

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2004
Messages
187
Reaction score
62
Location
AES FTW
A few random thoughts... no opinions, rants or facts otherwise implied... just an outsider looking in...

= = = = =

Muscle Memory.... Or "That's How We've Always Done It...

Once someone learns how to navigate all those zones (aka Harris calls them Profiles) and talkgroups in a radio, it's easier to keep things the same on a new radio system so you don't have to retrain / relearn something new.

Still one would have to ask the big question... how does a firefighter lay down his hose in order to navigate to Profile X, Talkgroup Y in a flash-over situation?

And how often does he/she REALLY perform that type of radio operation under far less strenuous events?

Regardless... too complicated for effective utilization !!!!

= = = = =

Pure Laziness

No one - at any level - wanted to take a serious look at the old system, radio setup, and radio procedures while asking critical questions like "what works well", "do even use Talkgroup ABC123", "what do our end users think", or "can we simplify" ?

Same thing applies to programming - easier to "cut and paste" vs think.

With professional sports team events, the state fair, the Milwaukee Mile raceway, weekly summer festivals at the Summerfest Grounds, the Milwaukee Air and Water Show, and the 2024 political convention - has there ever been a TRUE review of interoperable communications in this town???

= = = = =

New Toys... Fully Loaded

Everyone understands that these new radios have a lot of capacity for zones/channels/talkgroups - we all get that.

L3Harris (formerly GE/Ericcson), Motorola, JVC Kenwood (formerly EF Johnson), Tait, and BK all have similar bells and whistles - so that's an equal playing field.

But just because you have that capacity, doesn't mean you need to fill it to the brim.

Yeah, there's the NIFOG interoperability talkgroups and/or statewide standard interop talkgroups.

Yeah there's always the POSSIBILITY that you'll get deployed ANYWHERE/ANYTIME... but didn't MARC1 work just as well???

Wouldn't money be better spent on NEW FIRE APPARATUS??? The MFD fleet is old and needs replacing MORE THAN NEW RADIOS!

= = = = =

Lack of An Interoperability Mindset Across Agencies

Not just the city, but county/regional/statewide there's a whole lot of "it's my turf" attitude.

In the Southeast Region:
Milwaukee is on its own P-25 System.
Milwaukee County and Waukesha County share their P-25 System (one shining example).
Ozaukee County is on their own P-25 System.
Walworth County is on their own P-25 System.

Look at the state capitol: Dane County (on VHF), Madison (on 800 Mhz), and state on WISCOM.

Look at other surrounding states in the Midwest and one can quickly see how true Interoperability and shared systems do indeed work... and work quite well...

STARCOM21, Michigan MPSCS, Indiana SAFE-T, Ohio MARCS, Minnesota ARMER.

While nothing's perfect, but there's a lot of better ways to skin this cat... and most of those systems are 20+ years old, have been tried and proven in all range of incidents, and host agencies at all levels on a 24/365 basis.

WISCOM never worked right, had some pretty horrendous installations.

It never was fully utilized at any real "statewide" level.

In the Milwaukee Metro Area, just two (2) talkgroups are routinely used: WSP SE Dispatch and R-Call 21 (only during severe weather).

All the other "so-callled" WISCOM talkgroups are just re-transmitted patches from other systems.

Other agencies use legacy systems or simply do not use radio communications - ie cellular.

Unsure if the new 700Mhz state system will be any better or solve this without agreed to POLICY and DIRECTION to back up the system capabilities from all stakeholders.

= = = = =

Again, just random thoughts.... I'll step off the soapbox for now....
CAD kicks out a talkgroup assignment automatically based on the call type. Several talkgroups are grouped together by function with room for expansion based on the worst case scenario (fireground, ops, staging, etc…).

It’s a template that is meticulously planned, and shared across all fire agencies in the area specifically for interoperability.
 
Last edited:

OpSec

All your WACN are belong to us
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,009
Reaction score
349
Location
Monitoring the database
CAD kicks out a talkgroup assignment automatically based on the call type. Several talkgroups are grouped together by function with room for expansion based on the worst case scenario (firefround, ops, staging, etc…).

It’s a template that is meticulously planned, and shared across all fire agencies in the area specifically for interoperability.

Gotta love the armchair QB's...
 

rjschilder

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2004
Messages
187
Reaction score
62
Location
AES FTW
Gotta love the armchair QB's...
And P.S. Opensky is end of life, end of support, and end of manufacture. The comment about them not needing new radios is ridiculous and laughable. Replacement infrastructure and radios haven’t been available in 4 years. So yes, yes they did need new radios.
 

ryolsen8

Active Member
Feed Provider
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
593
Reaction score
100
Location
BEE07
I’m confused. When MFD switched to closed sky, they got a boatload of talkgroups. They seemed to have carried that over to their new P25 system with 143 talkgroups plus their conventional fireground channels (15.)

Why on earth do they need so many talkgroups? They can I’m not saying they can’t but in comparison, Detroit has 19 talkgroups and about 10 fireground channels.

MFD’s minimum staffing is 213 Firefighters/Officers/Batt Chiefs and Medics. If you remove the Med units that are on a different system, pretty much every firefighter gets a talkgroup.

If anyone has the reasoning behind this I’d be curious to know why.
Where are these conventional channels listed? I don't see them on RR at all.
 

CrabbyMilton

Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
968
Reaction score
455
Perhaps these?


Copilot Search Branding


Like
Dislike

MABAS Milwaukee 8TAC Channels​

MABAS Wisconsin’s 800 MHz “8TAC” channels are statewide interoperability frequencies for fire, EMS, and other public safety agencies, with Milwaukee using them for both primary and secondary tactical communications.

Purpose and Scope​

MABAS (Mutual Aid Box Alarm System) is Wisconsin’s statewide mutual aid program for fire, rescue, and EMS. The 8TAC channels are part of the Statewide ARES/RACES Repeaters plan and are designed for wide-area interoperability during multi-jurisdictional incidents RadioReference.com. They are used for both primary and secondary tactical communications, with Milwaukee’s fire department using them in coordination with other agencies mabas-wi.org.

Milwaukee’s 8TAC Channel Assignments​

The Milwaukee MABAS division uses the following 800 MHz frequencies for interoperability RadioReference.com:
  • 851.450 MHz8TACRED (Red) – Primary tactical channel
  • 851.950 MHz8TACWHITE (White) – Secondary tactical channel
  • 852.450 MHz8TACBLUE (Blue) – Secondary tactical channel
  • 852.950 MHz8TACGOLD (Gold) – Secondary tactical channel
  • 853.450 MHz8TACBLACK (Black) – Secondary tactical channel
  • 853.950 MHz8TACGRAY (Gray) – Secondary tactical channel
These channels operate on the 156.7 PL tone and are FM interoperable across Wisconsin
 

sideshowjim

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
28
Reaction score
24
Location
Northwestern Wisconsin
Glad I live "up nort"... but I can see what's in the future for these parts by monitoring the situation in the southeast portion of Wisconsin.

The county public safety systems in my area here are a mix of WISCOM, P25/Analog and some DMR...yet Chippewa County Sheriff is still analog, it's my favorite system monitor too, it seems to work just fine, maybe "old is gold"!

Rusk County has completely new P25 simulcast system with an additional tower site for the Sheriff's Department, squad upgrades and new portables too, new Dispatch System while the Fire and EMS are still analog. Radio service is still working on some bugs, the jury is still out if was worth spending 3 million in tax payer dollars, especially if big changes are in the wind!
 

yogi54481

Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2018
Messages
9
Reaction score
10
Who's building a 700MHz system?

“The Wisconsin Interoperable System for Communications (WISCOM) will be transitioning from VHF (Very High Frequency) P25 Phase 1 system to a 7/800 MHz Hybrid P25 Phase 1 & Phase system, which will be called WISCOM 800. WISCOM 800 will also contain a VHF conventional overlay. The state has contracted L3Harris to design and build out this new system.”
 
Last edited:
Top