More CSX Digital Nonsense

[joekansas]

So, those type units won't work on the new system. Looks like I'll have some nice units to use as scanners to listen to local L.E.agencies.

I am really in the dark- and don't want to spend hours looking up wikipedia explanations. You telling me that there won't be the AAR channels we are using now, or they'll still be there but the radios will be transmitting on a more well defined, narrow, wavelength that won't bleed over on to adjoining frequencies? Explain that to me, please, if it's possible!

 

[n1oty]

HT600, HT1000, and Spectras won't do narrowband.

The BNSF radio I operated yesterday, had almost 200 channels in one group that were all narrowband. The other group was wideband and had almost 100 channels.

Tim K.

I have seen the code plug out of a BNSF Kenwood NX-210. It had a zone with all the frequencies they use in wide band, another zone with those frequencies in narrow analog, another zone with ultra-narrow (6.25 khz) NXDN digital and a fourth zone with the VHF weather frequencies. There was a fifth zone marked "PBX" with frequencies identified by colors.

John

 

[DPD1]

So, those type units won't work on the new system. Looks like I'll have some nice units to use as scanners to listen to local L.E.agencies.

I am really in the dark- and don't want to spend hours looking up wikipedia explanations. You telling me that there won't be the AAR channels we are using now, or they'll still be there but the radios will be transmitting on a more well defined, narrow, wavelength that won't bleed over on to adjoining frequencies? Explain that to me, please, if it's possible!

For now, they are basically splinting the plan that existed, and new channels are being added in-between the old ones. So on most radios, you would probably still be able to listen, even if the radio didn't technically do any of the new channels. And it's unknown how the new channels will be used. Most likely they will be used on secondary stuff first... Not road channels. Not for a while anyway. So for the near future, you probably won't see any huge change. But some day it might come up where you get a channel you need to use that's one of the new ones.

 

[burner50]

So, those type units won't work on the new system. Looks like I'll have some nice units to use as scanners to listen to local L.E.agencies.

They WILL work on the new system, but only on the original channels 2-97... not on any of the "splinter" frequencies above channel 97. And on the original channels, the perfomance will be reduced, but still work.


UP issued rules today about when to change over to the narrow frequencies... They're going to update Subdivision by Subdivision with a Subdivision General Order specifying the correct frequency. When it specifies a 6 digit channel, use a 6 digit channel.

 

[joekansas]

Burner- thanks for that explanation. I can understand that!

I overheard the MofW boss talking to the radio man today and the radioman kept talking about narrowband this and that.. Radioman told MofW to count all his walkies and count all the mobile units in the trucks and machines so he could give a count to someone, so evidently it is in the works here.

I heard the MofW man ask the radio man what he was supposed to do with his walkies when he gets new radios, but the radioman was also talking on his phone at the same time and didn't hear him ask, so I didn't get to find out what they were going to do with all these HT1000's that are floating around out here on the railroad.

I'm gonna have to pull a rabbit outta my hat to get me a new radio. With luck I can trade this old 6 channel ht for a brand new narrowband capable unit! All the new radios I see the men carrying are little Kenwoods. They sure don't have much range.

Again, Burner, thanks for the reply.

 

[Josh]

If the radios share the same fate as previous ones, they'll probably be auctioned off and whoever gets a bulk lot can do whatever. Back when CSX retired their MT500 radios, one guy on eBay made a mint by selling them about 10 years ago- all without the transmit crystals. I would imagine that's what will happen with any new CSX retire.

Of course, some HT1000 radios are narrowband capable though, so maybe those won't be retired, however the rest of them will essentially be useless unless resold to ham operators because everything else in the VHF band will have had to be converted to narrowband.

 

[Josh]

I am reviving an old thread here to throw in yet another viewpoint on this "digital nonsense".

When railroads invest in something, they tend to want to keep with something that is going to last for decades- at least 30 plus years.

With FCC mandating narrowband and eventually 6.25/ digital somewhere down the road (at an undetermined time), by going to NXDN capable radios, when the FCC mandates the change to 6.25, railroads should be ahead of the curve by already having capable radios, whether it be in 2013, 2015 or whenever.

We still use HT1000s where I work, but next year we're going to some new iCom iDas radios... In digital? No, but capable- YES.

I think you'll find that railroads by far are following this pattern and for now it's nothing to worry about. Consider a basic narrowband capable scanner and call it a day.

 

[N2ICV]

I think some of you need to read this.

"The AAR recommends that all new radios purchased be very narrowband (NXDN) compatible."

AAR Radio Frequency Migration

 

[BamaScan]

Here is the CSX TimeTable to switch to narrowband. Nothing said about Digital.

CSX changes to narrowband - Jacksonville Transportation | Examiner.com

 

[DPD1]

I am reviving an old thread here to throw in yet another viewpoint on this "digital nonsense".

When railroads invest in something, they tend to want to keep with something that is going to last for decades- at least 30 plus years.

With FCC mandating narrowband and eventually 6.25/ digital somewhere down the road (at an undetermined time), by going to NXDN capable radios, when the FCC mandates the change to 6.25, railroads should be ahead of the curve by already having capable radios, whether it be in 2013, 2015 or whenever.

We still use HT1000s where I work, but next year we're going to some new iCom iDas radios... In digital? No, but capable- YES.

I think you'll find that railroads by far are following this pattern and for now it's nothing to worry about. Consider a basic narrowband capable scanner and call it a day.

Exactly... New equipment purchases do not = Instant change system-wide.

 

[radioman2001]

Working for a RR and hearing all the BS, this is what we have had to deal with. The AAR is pissed at Motorola for canceling the Astro Spectra CC. So in a move reminiscent to NYPD when they went with Vertex, they went with ICOM and Kenwood. Now I don't know which came first, ICOM contacting AAR or the other way around, but NXDN/NextEdge is a jointly developed technology, which is licensable from them, meaning Motorola could use it if they chose to. Using the second generation of AMBE encoder/decoders it supposedly has superior audio to P-25, I can't attest to that.
Now in another move the AAR went to the FCC with a grand plan to refarm the RR allocated frequency plan, it included 6.25kc channels,specified repeater pairs, and a wide band plan for internet applications. Part of that plan also included getting Amtrak to give up all of their splinter licenses nationwide. It also included that no other than RR could get frequencies from that band. I don't know if that means that users other than RR can keep them past their relicense date. The FCC approved the plan back in November of 2010. As a result any requests for licenses, and I must assume for other than rail traffic, must now conform to that plan, one is that they be 6.25kc, which means digital, and that they are not guranteed to stay on that frequency, and could be moved again at a later date. We have 18 pairs of 6.25 channels, which at the moment we are not using and have no plans for. They are not FCC licensed, and have the stipulation that we must change when told to. I have to wonder if the AAR has been granted a license to issue use agreements on channels similar to Airinc and the AM air frequencies.

 

[stevelton]

Indiana Railroad has modified all their licenses for 6.25 digital and 12.5 narrowband. They are buying the capable radios.
Will they use nxdn system wide, maybe, maybe not. But theyll have the license to do it if they want, just with a switch of the channel.

If they do use nxdn, it would be conventional just like theyre doing now. No repeaters, no trunking, no RAN codes or encyption. They will just replace the current wayside bases with the new digital radios, and continue to operate the way they always have.
So for railfans, all they will need to do is buy the F3161 Icom or NX200 Kenwood handheld radio, and program in the frequencies, you are good to go.

Steven

 

[sisyphean]

Update for Class 1 Railroads

CSX will be totally narrowband compliant in December. They don't have any digital systems in use yet. NS has 6 yards using NXDN digital channels - primarily for car inspectors and other groups that don't need to talk to locomotives. Both CSX and NS are almost totally converted to NXDN capable radios (CSX has 1200 non-NXDN CC radios left to change out).

CP Rail already operates an NXDN trunking system in Vancouver and some of their subdivisions are already operating in NXDN mode.

The change-over is fairly simple as the user just switches over to NXDN channels (302-489) in the same way as analog channels (005-097).

Converting to narrowband was a compliance necessity but yielded no additional channels to the RRs. The AAR band evolved in the 1960s and the railroads obtained a waiver to use splinter channels based on 15 KHz spacing with the understanding that they would accept any degradation. Now that they are narrowband, the splinter channels have adequate spacing with adjacent channels. Conversion to NXDN digital will yield more channels and solve some old problems in places like Chicago.

The class 1 RRs are working to maintain total compatibility with each other so NXDN digital will become the standard in fairly short order. There will be no technical or financial reason why CSX could not be totally NXDN by 2013 and some of the other roads could convert at about the same time. The biggest challenge would be updating the timetables.

The Kenwood radios that the Class 1 RRs use all have custom firmware to be able to directly enter channel 005-489 (with the exception of CSX which is considering adopting it as well).

RR Police have also adopted MSAT technology in their vehicles for interoperability between themselves, other roads, and government agencies. These systems work very well but require a clear line-of-sight to the southern sky.