Motorola Wave

[RadioGuy3007]

Good Evening,
I wanted to get some opinions on Motorola Wave. We are a smaller Level 2 trauma center with outdated vertex analog equipment. We have looked into a capacity plus system but we were quoted around 70k for just the infrastructure.

We were offered a demo of Motorola Wave radios and dispatch console. So far it has worked great in the deep walls of the basement.

One thing we were looking at with capacity plus was the ability to encrypt our communications for security and emergency operations and obviously WAVE already has encryption loaded with no extra cost.

I am trying to weigh the pros and cons of each. Our administration would be happy to save 70k and realistically the only departments with constant radio use is our Valet and Security. The other departments use them as needed for testing equipment, mock drills etc..

So what I want to know from those more experienced with WAVE. Would you recommend it for a hospital for daily operations.

Some of the things we like is:
AES 256 Encryption
Private Calling of Contacts
Talk Groups (To communicate with our sister locations in times of crisis)
GPS locating
Quick OTAP

The concerns I have:
A large scale disaster overloads cellular signal and then you are forced to rely on WiFi.

No emergency button for security forces with the TLK-100s

Difficulties patching to an ASTRO core unless you physically connect it to the core.


We were offered to go onto a new P2 system however I feel since we are a private hospital the only talk groups we should be using on that system is the ambulance to ER and Care Flight.

I noticed some turbo radios like the 7550E have the option to add a Wave channel. Is it possible to do so with out a turbo system in place?

We are really digging into the cost of everything. We are also demoing APX 6000 and APX Next. However I think its very unreasonable to spend 6k a radio for how light the communication is. I could see having one or two available so we could communicate with our first responders in a natural disaster situation.

I do not think the provider of the P2 system would want us putting a patch on something we don't own.

Please let me know your thoughts.

 

[N4DES]

Depending on how AT&T works in your immediate area, this is also an option. I have seen their console in action and it's pretty robust. Our Paratransit group uses it and they have never complained about ever having an issue. Just another option outside of Mother Moto.

AT&T Field Service Management & Instant Messaging at Work (att.com)

 

[ChrisE_STB]

Are there any other local systems you can reach out to and join as a subscriber?

 

[KG7PBS]

hey i would go with Tait Communications DMR TP9300. it will do TDMA and AES-256 DMR. you don't need a Cap Plus System. you said Security and Valet our you main users. one RPT can have SO and Vet on it. the 2nd RPT can run your other Ops. save you 20,000 right there

 

[Ant9270]

WAVE is definitely good, but keep in mind that I wouldn’t exactly say it’s as reliable as your own infrastructure. Secondly, the TLK-100’s are not very durable. Yes, they do have a lot of features packed in and are fairly secure. You can definitely purchase licenses to have TRBO XPRs work on your wave system, if you wanted your security unit’s to have portables with the ability to trigger emergency button. If you’re going to do that, I’d suggest also getting a basic repeater and licensing for one DMR frequency. It is always good to have your own infrastructure in a backup, god forbid LTE craps out.

 

[mmckenna]

If all you need this for is internal communications within the hospital (and surrounding buildings/parking lots), then I think radios like APX, XPR and all that sort of stuff is kind of a waste. You won't gain anything from that, other than getting tied into an expensive long term contract with Motorola and/or their shop. And that's what they want, they want to lock you into long term contracts. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, then got smart.

I'm willing to bet that the hospital already has a reliable and robust WiFi network, and your core network is backed up by UPS/generators. For non-life safety users, a smart phone would be easier, cheaper and more flexible. There are lots of solutions that would meet your needs that would run on your WiFi network as well as Cellular. WiFi will more than likely cover inside your buildings better than anything else, and if not, it's relatively easy to add some access points where needed. It's way cheaper than adding RF coverage from a radio system.
No way I'd reinvent the wheel, spend $70,000, or anything else for valet parking and some security guards.

There are ways to patch into another radio system if that is really required. I think you'll find that public safety users won't want security patched into their channels, except in some very carefully controlled situations.

If you need a stand alone radio system for emergencies, then stick with something basic. Overly complex systems that get pushed by the vendors usually are not the answer. A basic system with some basic radios will probably fit your needs, and there is no way that should cost $70K.

 

[mmckenna]

I gotta add this, and I'm sure it'll get me in trouble with some:

If you ask a security guard what sort of radio they need, they will almost always come up with a reason why they need to carry the exact same radio the local law enforcement agency does. They want to look the part, and assume that the radio makes them "one of them". I've seen places spend a ton of money on high end radios for people that don't need them. Law Enforcement, in almost -all- cases, does not want security guards on their channels or want them having access in any way.
A security guard needs a reasonable radio that lets him/her do their job. APX ain't it. And that would be a colossal waste of money just to stroke egos.
Better approach may be to have some spare security radios that can be loaned to PD -if- they need it.

Your ER may need a base radio to talk on the local systems, but that should come down from who ever runs the radio system.

Admin/maintenance/parking can do just fine with a smart phone. 10-20 years ago all our IT guys carried a two way radio. Now none of them do. They all use cell phones. Same with Admin, several still have radios, but it's been years since I've seen them use them. Most don't want to learn how to use them, or carry them around. When everyone has a smart phone in their hand, that's your best solution for making sure everyone can communicate.

Your IT guys can easily set up the WiFi network to do what you want. Between that and cellular, you'll get all the coverage you will ever need. That $70K on the radio system will buy a ton of WiFi access points that can run over POE. The network switch that feeds them can be put on a UPS large enough to give them 2+ hours of run time, and plug them into generator protected outlets. We did that and it's worked well. All our VoIP phones, WiFi access points and security cameras benefit from this setup. Then the end user gets to use a smart phone that they will be much more comfortable using in an emergency.

I like radios. It's my job. They have their place. But there's a point where you need to look at usability and adoption by the end users. Everyone has a cell phone, everyone is comfortable with theirs, and knows how to make it work. In a true emergency, you don't want someone picking up a radio they've never used before. First thing they will ALWAYS do is start twisting knobs and pushing buttons without a clue as to what they are doing. It never works out well, and communications suffer.

It falls under the KISS system. "Keep It Simple, Stupid".

 

[HospitalRadioGuy]

I gotta add this, and I'm sure it'll get me in trouble with some:

If you ask a security guard what sort of radio they need, they will almost always come up with a reason why they need to carry the exact same radio the local law enforcement agency does. They want to look the part, and assume that the radio makes them "one of them". I've seen places spend a ton of money on high end radios for people that don't need them. Law Enforcement, in almost -all- cases, does not want security guards on their channels or want them having access in any way.
A security guard needs a reasonable radio that lets him/her do their job. APX ain't it. And that would be a colossal waste of money just to stroke egos.
Better approach may be to have some spare security radios that can be loaned to PD -if- they need it.

I wouldn't say "trouble" but I will say this is the first time I've ever disagreed with you.

I've worked in healthcare security for almost 20 years now. Very, very few of them are wannabe cops. And the ones who are, don't last long. Some are retired cops. Some are full-time cops or even firefighters who work prn in security on their off-days. Most of them don't know or care about the radios. They want something small and light that actually works inside the building. The police radios usually don't. And nobody wants to tote around a heavy APX when they can carry an XPR or similar. The last few hospitals I've worked, we actually have police radios available. Nobody carries them and few people even turn them on in dispatch. Cops talk too much. They aren't interested unless it's a shooting nearby or something.

You must be confusing healthcare security with mall security or securitas or allied or something. Those are the wannabes.

 

[mmckenna]

I wouldn't say "trouble" but I will say this is the first time I've ever disagreed with you.

You must be confusing healthcare security with mall security or securitas or allied or something. Those are the wannabes.

I've run into it with various security groups. I'd like to say it's rare, and it mostly is, but it happens enough that I watch for it.
A lot of the wanna-be's get washed out, sure. But sometimes they "fail upward" and become supervisors/managers.
Then I get to hear about why they need to have the exact same radios PD has. Why their radios are inferior, and will never work right unless they have the same one. I get to hear about "We need to talk with PD, we are their partners". But our chief of police disagrees and backs me up.

Hopefully this is an easy solution. I don't think an APX or even an XPR grade radio is suitable for a application like this. Usually locations like Hospitals, schools and colleges have very robust WiFi networks and pretty good cellular coverage. There's a lot of benefits to leveraging those existing networks rather than trying to build out a radio system that provides the same coverage for a handful of end users.

Radios absolutely have their place, but technology has taken some big steps in the last few years. If the IT guys are on the ball and have built a good network, there's really no reason why it can fill this role. It's also often much easier to get funding for IT projects, since senior management sees that as an "every day" need. Radio systems, other the other hand, are often seen as a system that's needed in the event of a major emergency, and those are quick to get cut from the budget.

Either way, there are some really good options, either WiFi/Cellular or traditional RF. The line in between them is getting really fuzzy, though.

 

[littona]

Radios absolutely have their place, but technology has taken some big steps in the last few years. If the IT guys are on the ball and have built a good network, there's really no reason why it can fill this role. It's also often much easier to get funding for IT projects, since senior management sees that as an "every day" need. Radio systems, other the other hand, are often seen as a system that's needed in the event of a major emergency, and those are quick to get cut from the budget.

Either way, there are some really good options, either WiFi/Cellular or traditional RF. The line in between them is getting really fuzzy, though.

One of the big challenges here is with Hospital IT. I've dealt with a bunch of them across the country. If they're willing to work with you and put in the effort, you can have a great outcome. But be prepared to be buried in piles of security paperwork, change control meetings, and other bureaucratic pains. To put it simply, many put a lot more work into not doing the work than they do doing the actual work.

 

[mmckenna]

To put it simply, many put a lot more work into not doing the work than they do doing the actual work.

Yeah, unfortunately I'm under the larger IT organization. Usually it works out well, but periodically it goes all pear shaped. Trick is building a relationship with the other IT folks, and learning enough IT stuff to understand what they are mumbling about.

Fortunately, we usually get ignored by the IT leadership and I can pretty much do what I want. Those above me barely know which end of the radio to talk into, and would more than likely poke their own eye out with the antenna.

Bonus points if you can find an IT guy that has their ham license and shows some interest. That often works well.

 

[HospitalRadioGuy]

But sometimes they "fail upward" and become supervisors/managers.

I'll give you that one. Not just in security, but many people are promoted for reasons other than competence.

My question is, why does he need all these "operations" on one system? WiFi radios would be perfect for things like maintenance, housekeeping, transporters, etc. because they're pretty much inside the building all the time. And if the system goes down, it's a pain but not critical.
But for something like security where (depending on the facility) they may be out in parking lots, parking structures, clinics and offices all over town. They don't need to rely on infrastructure that can so easily fail like WiFi and cellular.

Why not both? Security could have a standalone repeater for their operations and all the other internal operations could use WiFi radios.

I probably wouldn't be so hung up on actual radios if it weren't for personal experience. The Nashville bombing a couple of years ago took out service for a huge portion of Tennessee and Kentucky. We would have been in serious trouble without actual radios.

 

[mmckenna]

Icom makes some nice radios that will do WiFi/LTE and provide all the coverage you need. There are network interfaces that will sit on the existing data network to run things, and allow linking out to other systems.

There's always going to be risk, you just have to decide how much money you want to throw at the risk to appease it. Getting 100% reliability and 100% coverage gets REALLY expensive. At some point you have to come up with other solutions, like simple frequencies and having well trained users.