My own opinion

[MTS2000des]

$500 a year


$200 a year for one radio and $150 a year for each additional radio, and that fee doesn't include the radios?

No thanks. None for me.

But the real question is, can I use my AES-256 enabled XPR7550e's? I want my conversations safe from stalkers and streamers! Or do they only support welfare encryption aka ARC4?

 

[celestis]

But the real question is, can I use my AES-256 enabled XPR7550e's? I want my conversations safe from stalkers and streamers!

every TG on the system is AES encrypted

 

[Project25_MASTR]

$500 a year


$200 a year for one radio and $150 a year for each additional radio, and that fee doesn't include the radios?

No thanks. None for me.

As far as SMR type systems go...that's pretty cheap. Basically works out to about $14 per radio (for multiple radios) and the going rate these days is between $25 and $30 a radio not including the radio.

 

[AK9R]

As far as SMR type systems go...that's pretty cheap.

But it's an eyebrow-raiser when you tell people who paid $35 for their license plus $25 for a cheap, Chinese radio plus maybe $25 for a "club membership" that they now have to buy a $250-500 radio plus $200/year to get on the system just to talk to the same people. The negative reactions are understandable.

 

[mmckenna]

But it's an eyebrow-raiser when you tell people who paid $35 for their license plus $25 for a cheap, Chinese radio plus maybe $25 for a "club membership" that they now have to buy a $250-500 radio plus $200/year to get on the system just to talk to the same people. The negative reactions are understandable.

Add in the cost of a CCR that supports AES256:

every TG on the system is AES encrypted

 

[MTS2000des]

Add in the cost of a CCR that supports AES256:

If its a CapPlus/Max it's proprietary trunking and even more so if they are using RAS- MSI subs only and no CCRs support CapMax (unless the it's optioned for Tier 3). Womp womp womp

But why bother? Rapid Radios are much less, work nationwide, and are natively encrypted on LTE and they have models that support CopMikes™ but no CopSounds™, FireSounds™ or CADSounds™.

 

[mmckenna]

support CopMikes™ but no CopSounds™, FireSounds™ or CADSounds™.

You left out HVAC sounds and 38MHz CB.

 

[AK9R]

Rapid Radios are much less, work nationwide, and are natively encrypted on LTE...

I know very little about Rapid Radios other than they are PTT-over-cellular (POC).

How do you find new people to talk to using POC? How do you contact specific people using POC radios? How do you engage a group in conversation using POC radios?

With a GMRS repeater, you can just key up, throw out your callsign, and maybe someone will come back to you. Same thing for a linked GMRS repeater network, only you are fishing from a larger lake. If you already know who you want to talk to, you can call them directly, though everyone listening to the repeater(s) hears your call. Or, if you want to engage a group, you have a "net" or a "roundtable" whether formally or informally.

The points I made in the above paragraph sound like amateur radio to me. Which begs the question...

 

[MTS2000des]

Running AES encryption, people aren't likely to join in either. PoC radios and services like Zello do have publicly available "virtual" channels, and one can always invite as many users as they wish, without the hassle of things like keyloading, RAS, programming/provisioning devices, etc. It's easy to see why PoC is REPLACING LMR in many business applications: it's cheap to procure, deploy and maintain.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

$500 a year


$200 a year for one radio and $150 a year for each additional radio, and that fee doesn't include the radios?

No thanks. None for me.

I have to wonder the target market for this network. When i worked out of Schaumburg, pretty much when you got well past the Chicago bedroom communities, it was all agricultural well into Iowa and Indiana, and Motorola sold a lot of community repeaters and eventually SMR's to support farmers and families. There was surprisingly a lot of wealth in that market. The radios were an essential tool mounted on equipment and a lifeline and also a huge help when equipment would break or need fuel. Then there was the need to transport corn and grain to the market hubs, silo's etc. I have no idea how cellular compares in performance, cost and utility, but communications was important.

 

[CaptDan]

Cellphones have their place, however 2 way radio is king on a farm where multiple people need to hear some information or respond to a question. As posted above, calling for fuel is kinda simple, call the fuel truck, but when a piece of equipment is needed, like who has the 4600 (tractor) with the winch, need it on the south/west by the tracks, Mom has her truck stuck (again), or anyone around the shop that can come out to the west end of the fire trail, the fence needs to be repaired.

One radio transmission, everyone hears it, same message might require 6 or more cellphone calls.

Pretty much each local farm property - family - uses a set frequency and then we use one for calling among all of our properties.

 

[MTS2000des]

Cellphones have their place, however 2 way radio is king on a farm where multiple people need to hear some information or respond to a question. As posted above, calling for fuel is kinda simple, call the fuel truck, but when a piece of equipment is needed, like who has the 4600 (tractor) with the winch, need it on the south/west by the tracks, Mom has her truck stuck (again), or anyone around the shop that can come out to the west end of the fire trail, the fence needs to be repaired.

One radio transmission, everyone hears it, same message might require 6 or more cellphone calls.

Pretty much each local farm property - family - uses a set frequency and then we use one for calling among all of our properties.

You do know that Push to Talk Over Cellular (PTToC) works exactly the same way, except one doesn't need megabuck repeaters/illegally linked GMRS repeaters, or coptastic walkie talkies right?

So long as there is cellular coverage on a farm, a cheap iPhone or Android with Zello or any host of PTToC apps with a quality high audio BT RSM does EXACTLY the same purpose. For free99 too. Just saying.

I find it hard to fathom farmers going out and spending hundred of thousands of dollars on expensive LMR radios if something that is stable, widely available, and low cost will do the same thing. Have you not seen the T-Mobile ads with Billy Bob Thornton in the middle of nowhere shilling for their superior low band (N71) and satellite coverage?

 

[MTS2000des]

I have to wonder the target market for this network.

You know who it is: the Skywarn whackers and funeral escorts. Since when do farmers need or want fancy $700-1000 (average price of an R7). Come on now. You and I know better.

 

[talviar]

You do know that Push to Talk Over Cellular (PTToC) works exactly the same way, except one doesn't need megabuck repeaters/illegally linked GMRS repeaters, or coptastic walkie talkies right?

So long as there is cellular coverage on a farm, a cheap iPhone or Android with Zello or any host of PTToC apps with a quality high audio BT RSM does EXACTLY the same purpose. For free99 too. Just saying.

I find it hard to fathom farmers going out and spending hundred of thousands of dollars on expensive LMR radios if something that is stable, widely available, and low cost will do the same thing. Have you not seen the T-Mobile ads with Billy Bob Thornton in the middle of nowhere shilling for their superior low band (N71) and satellite coverage?

Mobile LMR radio fixed in a piece of equipment doesn't need cell network/coverage to ensure 2 way radio communications. Try using a cell phone during a large "event" planned or otherwise in a rural area. Voice is just about non existant and data is about useless as everyone and their sister/brother/friend is trying to live stream and/or text photos in an area with coverage of 2 or 3 cell towers....

 

[CaptDan]

Who said anything about spending thousands of dollars on LMR radios or repeaters or any of that silliness.

The only point you were correct on is that we do not want to spend money on stuff we don't need. Very simple GMRS hand held radios work perfectly and legally. While I am only talking about over 100 acres for me, other farmers have 1000 acres and GMRS still works fine for them. I will admit some have put up repeaters on their farms, but still have less than $2000 - $2500 invested.

If they use CCR and no repeater, less than $500.00 has a 50 watt base station, antenna on roof of barn and a 1/2 dozen hand held Baofeng radios ready to go.

If someone drops a $35.00 Baofeng in a mud puddle, not a big loss compared to $1,000 cellphone.

GMRS & MURS are tools for us to use, just like our tractors.

 

[MTS2000des]

Mobile LMR radio fixed in a piece of equipment doesn't need cell network/coverage to ensure 2 way radio communications. Try using a cell phone during a large "event" planned or otherwise in a rural area. Voice is just about non existant and data is about useless as everyone and their sister/brother/friend is trying to live stream and/or text photos in an area with coverage of 2 or 3 cell towers....

Worked Superbowl 2018, Imagine Fest 2023, and dozens of other high profile and low profile events with Imagine Fest being in the middle of nowhere as a COM-T/COM-L. Never had an issue with AT&T or T-Mobile, Verizon OTOH, had capacity issues at Imagine Fest. Planned events mean they bring in resources, so all that you are saying isn't reality in 2025. Carriers scale up for large events, and are building out and up their networks. It isn't 1999 and Woodstock 99 relying on AMPS and 2 carriers.

Ruggedized phones like Sonims are about what a good quality Anytone CCR costs and you can drown them, run over them and they don't die. Carriers often give them away to enterprise customers.

Cellular network expansion with small cells and picos is way cheaper, easier to deploy, and care free unlike LMR repeaters which are a massive pain in the ass, require coordination, not to mention qualified skilled technicians (not TEKNISHUNS) to setup and maintain. A device like a FirstNet small cell runs itself. Plug it in on your farm or shop, connect ethernet or sat, and walk away. No tech or truck roll needed. Sure, your repeater is yours, but it' just that: your problem. Unless you have a service monitor on hand, tons of cables, adapters, ISO-Ts, lots of experience and time on your hands when you're not plowing the fields to troubleshoot problems, seems like calling up AT&T, Verizon or T-Mo and getting an on-prem coverage enhancement solution is much cheaper and scalable, not to mention lower capital outlay than some complex self-maintained LMR system.

 

[talviar]

Worked Superbowl 2018, Imagine Fest 2023, and dozens of other high profile and low profile events with Imagine Fest being in the middle of nowhere as a COM-T/COM-L. Never had an issue with AT&T or T-Mobile, Verizon OTOH, had capacity issues at Imagine Fest. Planned events mean they bring in resources, so all that you are saying isn't reality in 2025. Carriers scale up for large events, and are building out and up their networks. It isn't 1999 and Woodstock 99 relying on AMPS and 2 carriers.

Ruggedized phones like Sonims are about what a good quality Anytone CCR costs and you can drown them, run over them and they don't die. Carriers often give them away to enterprise customers.

Cellular network expansion with small cells and picos is way cheaper, easier to deploy, and care free unlike LMR repeaters which are a massive pain in the ass, require coordination, not to mention qualified skilled technicians (not TEKNISHUNS) to setup and maintain. A device like a FirstNet small cell runs itself. Plug it in on your farm or shop, connect ethernet or sat, and walk away. No tech or truck roll needed. Sure, your repeater is yours, but it' just that: your problem. Unless you have a service monitor on hand, tons of cables, adapters, ISO-Ts, lots of experience and time on your hands when you're not plowing the fields to troubleshoot problems, seems like calling up AT&T, Verizon or T-Mo and getting an on-prem coverage enhancement solution is much cheaper and scalable, not to mention lower capital outlay than some complex self-maintained LMR system.

Superbowl 2018 was in Minneapolis. hardly a rural area. ...

Realistic info- Every year- Fayette County Fair in my County.... daily attendance during peak portion of day- around 9-10k. probably 6 cell sites within visible distance and one very overloaded deployable from Verizon. Data speed comes to a crawl. All the media entities seem to maintain connection but everyone else is very spotty with data at best.

Town of Ohiopyle- sparsely populated area- town and surrounding township make up 60 square miles with a population of 700. 3 cell towers within usable distance of the main part of town (bottom of ridges and river valley. You go up in all directions leaving town. Summer time- coverage is ok- sparse at best in areas, data on an average day with 20-30k in town becomes almost non existent. Property available for towers is owned by the state and is a state park. State will not release land for towers. This makes up approximately 2/3 of the 60 square miles.

Your mileage may vary from mine in terms of coverage. But understand the maps the cell carriers show for coverage are not "realistic" always works everywhere coverage maps. LMR still provides better coverage than cell in many areas......

 

[W8UU]

How do you find new people to talk to using POC? How do you contact specific people using POC radios? How do you engage a group in conversation using POC radios? With a GMRS repeater, you can just key up, throw out your call sign, and maybe someone will come back to you. Same thing for a linked GMRS repeater network, only you are fishing from a larger lake. If you already know who you want to talk to, you can call them directly, though everyone listening to the repeater(s) hears your call. Or, if you want to engage a group, you have a "net" or a "roundtable" whether formally or informally. The points I made in the above paragraph sound like amateur radio to me. Which begs the question...

You summed up my original point very well. Why would I pay $1,100 annually in user fees to talk to my own radios and other paid users on their system, and I still have to buy the digital mobile equipment on my own? We now have six GMRS mobiles and portables (all very good commercial grade equipment) and I like the ability to communicate with any GMRS station that can hear me if there's a disaster or an emergency. It serves us well.

I use GMRS for local communication with family members and a few friends. There are several repeaters in my fringe listening area that have acquired weekly "check in" nets conducted exactly like what I hear on my local 2 meter ham repeater. It lasts no longer than 10 minutes a week, so no harm done. I'm glad to know we have active GMRS users in our area but that desire to make GMRS a No-Test Technician Class ham band irritates me.

 

[Coffeemug]

I agree with mmckenna, GMRS was never intended to be used for long distance communication. Just like the 11m Band, the General Mobile Radio Service was intended to be used for short distance communication between families or small businesses, such as plumbers or landscaping companies.

However, I would in favor if the FCC gave permission to GMRS licensees to link repeaters via VoiP..

Until the Federal Communications Commission makes any changes, I would simply advise repeater owners or trustees to follow the current rules and regulations for part 95E.

 

[Coffeemug]

Linking GMRS repeaters is not a "debated issue" in the FCC's eyes. The FCC clearly states on their website:

"GMRS stations cannot be interconnected with the public switched telephone network or any other network for the purpose of carrying GMRS communications, but these networks can be used for remote control of repeater stations. In other words, repeaters may not be linked via the internet—an example of an “other network” in the rules—to extend the range of the communications across a large geographic area. Linking multiple repeaters to enable a repeater outside the communications range of the handheld or mobile device to retransmit messages violates sections 95.1733(a)(8) and 95.1749 of the Commission’s rules, and potentially other rules in 47 C.F.R. Repeaters may be connected to the telephone network or other networks only for purposes of remote control of a GMRS station, not for carrying communication signals."

"In addition to violating Commission rules, linking repeaters is not in the public interest. Because GMRS spectrum is limited and used on a shared 'commons' basis, the service only works well on a localized basis when users can hear each other and cooperate in the sharing of channels. Linking repeaters not only increases the potential for interference, but also uses up a limited spectrum resource over much larger areas than intended, limiting localized availability of the repeater channels."

The fact that the FCC has not taken action against particular linked GMRS repeater systems is not an indication that the FCC is OK with that practice. IOW, link at your own risk.

As for the FCC's "Delete, Delete, Delete" initiative, any proposed rule changes would have to be published by the FCC and time allowed for public comment. All that the FCC has done, so far, regarding "Delete, Delete, Delete" is clean up some out-of-date and no-longer-applicable language in some of its rules. No changes to allow linking of GMRS repeaters have been proposed by the FCC in recent history.

I don't understand how the North Georgia GMRS Group can say that they're linked, but in full compliance with FCC Part 95E. As you just said, the FCC prohibits the linking of GMRS repeaters for extended voice communication. I mean repeater owners are permitted to connect via telephone networks to make changes, turn on or off repeaters period.

I don't know about you, but I would be in favor of GMRS repeater linking if and when the FCC makes that decision. I do realize that the FCC did not intend for the General Mobile Radio Service to be used for long distance or nationwide communications, but that was the same with the 11meter band
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