NAS a System with multiple sites

[phirephoto]

Hi,

So I have a XG100M and XL200P. Since I'm using NAS on the XL200P, I have to program it in RPM 14, Open RPM2, import the PRS file, then program it in RPM2 (I'm assuming there's no other way?)
So here's my question: Currently I have the XL and XG programmed identically. Different PRS's since I have some low band freqs in the XG. But I'm picking up a LOT on the XL I'm not hearing on the XG. I'm hearing that I need to set up the sites properly?
What I have now is every control channel (data and voice control channels) in one system, and in that system, enhanced CC.
I'm hearing this may be why it's not working properly?
So here's my question:
Let's say the site is the ABC County System. Do I set up a system for each site, ie ABC-1, ABC-2, ABC-3, etc? Then on each, choose Dynamic Proscan?
Then on system ABC-1, add ABC-2, ABC-3, ABC-4, etc to systems being scanned?
So then I select say ABC-1, and it will be scanning each site?
Or is there some other way to accomplish this?
There's a LOT of overlaps on site coverage, so I ideally want to scan all sites - if I park on say Site 2, and I'm monitoring TG 1234, and no radio on Site 2 is affiliated to TG 1234, I won't hear the traffic.
Hope this makes sense.

And follow up, no way to import a CSV or anything of control channels is there?

Thanks!

 

[snoopyII]

Ok hang on here. Your first statement has be a bit confused. So your writing the master personality in RPM14 using the 100M for the model, then converting to a XL200P personality in RPM2? - Did I get that straight? If you're using RPM2 for the XL - why not just simplify your life and use it for the XG100M too? Granted its a new learning curve, but if your proficient in RPM14, you should be able to figure out RPM2 fairly easily.

Get rid of enhanced CC. Especially if you're are on a large state wide system, the preferred system table is limited to 32 entries, the radio WILL stray outside for those definitions of given the chance and it sees something it likes better. You didn't mention defining a system table, so I'm speculating the radio is going all over the place. Simply putting all the CC's you're interested in wont keep the radio for straying. It just gives it a starting point. Also you cant save a preferred system table like a group or frequency set, so in the end for a large personality, it's just as much programming because you have to define the system table by hand over and over again. ECC works great for legit SU's, absolutely miserable for NAS.

Set up each site individually ABC-1, 2, 3, put them all in each others system scanned systems list. You can set a preferred system if you wish. but you do need to know which TG's have a tendency to be on which site. For example- if TG 1234 is MOST OFTEN seen on site ABC-3, set ABC-3 as the preferred system. Depending how much work you're willing to put in, this could be defined on a per TG basis. USE FIXED ProScan...let the radio do all the heavy lifting from there. If you want to want to mess with the ProScan thresholds to further refine when it to jumps from one site to the other, more power to you. I've found the RPM defaults work for me. Dynamic ProScan is useful for new systems being built out constantly, but that's about it. It also has potential for getting stuck on a site you don't want to be on. Yes, this method takes a bit more programming, BUT you are 100% in control of which sites the radio goes to, because it will not stray off the systems scanned list. The downside here, is once the radio jumps off the preferred system, you cannot define preference on which site is uses next. Based on my experience, I believe it goes down the list in order, but I can't confirm or find anyone who can confirm this. But the radio will always be looking to get back to the preferred system. To address the overlaps part, you cannot "scan" the other sites to see what TG activity is going on over those sites while the radio is parked on another. It's not a scanner, that's not how it works.

Lastly, not sure what you mean by importing the control channels, (to/from where?) save the trunked frequency set as GLOBAL. You can import/export them to other personalities from there.

 

[phirephoto]

Ok hang on here. Your first statement has be a bit confused. So your writing the master personality in RPM14 using the 100M for the model, then converting to a XL200P personality in RPM2? - Did I get that straight? If you're using RPM2 for the XL - why not just simplify your life and use it for the XG100M too? Granted its a new learning curve, but if your proficient in RPM14, you should be able to figure out RPM2 fairly easily.

Get rid of enhanced CC. Especially if you're are on a large state wide system, the preferred system table is limited to 32 entries, the radio WILL stray outside for those definitions of given the chance and it sees something it likes better. You didn't mention defining a system table, so I'm speculating the radio is going all over the place. Simply putting all the CC's you're interested in wont keep the radio for straying. It just gives it a starting point. Also you cant save a preferred system table like a group or frequency set, so in the end for a large personality, it's just as much programming because you have to define the system table by hand over and over again. ECC works great for legit SU's, absolutely miserable for NAS.

Set up each site individually ABC-1, 2, 3, put them all in each others system scanned systems list. You can set a preferred system if you wish. but you do need to know which TG's have a tendency to be on which site. For example- if TG 1234 is MOST OFTEN seen on site ABC-3, set ABC-3 as the preferred system. Depending how much work you're willing to put in, this could be defined on a per TG basis. USE FIXED ProScan...let the radio do all the heavy lifting from there. If you want to want to mess with the ProScan thresholds to further refine when it to jumps from one site to the other, more power to you. I've found the RPM defaults work for me. Dynamic ProScan is useful for new systems being built out constantly, but that's about it. It also has potential for getting stuck on a site you don't want to be on. Yes, this method takes a bit more programming, BUT you are 100% in control of which sites the radio goes to, because it will not stray off the systems scanned list. The downside here, is once the radio jumps off the preferred system, you cannot define preference on which site is uses next. Based on my experience, I believe it goes down the list in order, but I can't confirm or find anyone who can confirm this. But the radio will always be looking to get back to the preferred system. To address the overlaps part, you cannot "scan" the other sites to see what TG activity is going on over those sites while the radio is parked on another. It's not a scanner, that's not how it works.

Lastly, not sure what you mean by importing the control channels, (to/from where?) save the trunked frequency set as GLOBAL. You can import/export them to other personalities from there.

So I'm using RPM14 for both - and both are a different personality.
I use RPM2 for the XL since I have no choice - I can't do NAS on RPM2 (unless I'm missing something). Even after I open the PRS on RPM2, everything is locked out - I can't add or delete talkgroups, etc.
It is a countywide system. Well, there's about 4 or 5 systems I listen to. They have between 3 sites, and 10. The biggest system has 10 sites, 95 control channels.
So just to confirm, I _DO_ need to add every channel, voice and data, that's listed in RadioReference correct?
So to confirm, each site is a system, ABC-1, ABC-2, etc. Do I still need a system table with that method? What should I have for preference - Always preferred?
And for import: I mean, like from a CSV file or something. To prevent fat finger problems when entering a ton of control channels :-D
Just basically creating a csv with the frequencies.

Thanks for your help :-D

 

[TDR-94]

Only Enh CC Scan allows preferred systems selections. ProScan and Dynamic ProScan don't because you tell it what systems (sites) to scan in the systems scan list. Enh CC Scan looks at every P25T system site in range and can lock onto whatever is the strongest, in any band, regardless of your preference settings.

 

[phirephoto]

Only Enh CC Scan allows preferred systems selections. ProScan and Dynamic ProScan don't because you tell it what systems (sites) to scan in the systems scan list. Enh CC Scan looks at every P25T system site in range and can lock onto whatever is the strongest, in any band, regardless of your preference settings.

Oh - duh. I see that now, I misread it Already started reprogramming my radios :-D

 

[snoopyII]

- I can't do NAS on RPM2 (unless I'm missing something). Even after I open the PRS on RPM2, everything is locked out - I can't add or delete talkgroups, etc.

YES- RPM2 is capable for programming NAS. But if everything is locked out, that tells me your using someone else's AAC restrictions on RPM2.

So just to confirm, I _DO_ need to add every channel, voice and data, that's listed in RadioReference correct?

NO- Control Channels only. That being said - if its a Harris built system, then EVERY channel is a CC and a Voice channel.

So to confirm, each site is a system, ABC-1, ABC-2, etc. Do I still need a system table with that method? What should I have for preference - Always preferred?

Again, it's your radio, do as you want, but I strongly recommend AGAINST using ECC in a NAS environment. There is no preferred system table in FPS.

And for import: I mean, like from a CSV file or something. To prevent fat finger problems when entering a ton of control channels :-D
Just basically creating a csv with the frequencies.

NO- you can't export/import frequency sets with a CSV file. But you set shouldn't have a "ton" or frequencies in it to begin with. The largest Harris built site in my area only has 12 frequencies in it, Most of the (large) Moto built systems have only 3-4 CC's.

 

[phirephoto]

YES- RPM2 is capable for programming NAS. But if everything is locked out, that tells me your using someone else's AAC restrictions on RPM2.



NO- Control Channels only. That being said - if its a Harris built system, then EVERY channel is a CC and a Voice channel.


Again, it's your radio, do as you want, but I strongly recommend AGAINST using ECC in a NAS environment. There is no preferred system table in FPS.


NO- you can't export/import frequency sets with a CSV file. But you set shouldn't have a "ton" or frequencies in it to begin with. The largest Harris built site in my area only has 12 frequencies in it, Most of the (large) Moto built systems have only 3-4 CC's.

Ok.. So I've been getting different info then Someone mentioned that if you add each channel, CC or otherwise, if a voice channel becomes a CC, you're set. Since I've almost all set up, can it do any harm to have each channel in?

I'll use Fixed ProScan.

As to using someone else's AAC restrictions - sorry, I'm not sure what that means. I'm not 100% familair with the Harris terminology.
Once I import the PRS file, everything in RPM2 is greyed out in terms of system or talkgroups. Is there some info from RPM2 I can give you that would help? At the bottom I see:
License: My Computer, Type PC Authenticated: N/A, Expiration Date: N/A, Write Personality: Unrestricted, Load: Unrestiricted. Security Keys: None

 

[fog]

Get rid of enhanced CC. Especially if you're are on a large state wide system, the preferred system table is limited to 32 entries, the radio WILL stray outside for those definitions of given the chance and it sees something it likes better. You didn't mention defining a system table, so I'm speculating the radio is going all over the place. Simply putting all the CC's you're interested in wont keep the radio for straying. It just gives it a starting point. Also you cant save a preferred system table like a group or frequency set, so in the end for a large personality, it's just as much programming because you have to define the system table by hand over and over again. ECC works great for legit SU's, absolutely miserable for NAS.

This thread has been an informative read; thanks! A lot of how the site roaming works has been pretty opaque to me and your comments here help a lot.

Just so I understand better: is the issue here that it is liable to try to affiliate / "register" in Harris parlance with these sites (since you didn't set Unit Registration: Never on them), or just that those sites might not carry the TGs you want?

Ok.. So I've been getting different info then Someone mentioned that if you add each channel, CC or otherwise, if a voice channel becomes a CC, you're set. Since I've almost all set up, can it do any harm to have each channel in?

I think this is actually what snoopyII was saying, just in different words. Ideally, you'd want to program every channel that could be a control channel, but programming voice-only channels will probably slow down the search.

What "every channel that could be a control channel" means depends on system infrastructure. Every Motorola system I'm familiar with around my way has a primary control channel and three alternate control channels which can carry voice if they're not in use as the control channel. You'd want to program all 4. Harris infrastructure seems to always have every repeater capable of being a control channel.

Usually this is indicated in the Radio Reference database, though -- you'll see either four frequencies in red with a "c" on the end, or all of them. Those are what you want to enter.

 

[snoopyII]

Someone mentioned that if you add each channel, CC or otherwise, if a voice channel becomes a CC, you're set. Since I've almost all set up, can it do any harm to have each channel in?

Again, it depends on who built the system, Harris, Motorola, etc.. From what I see, in the RRDB, EBRCS is a Motorola built system. A voice channel cannot become a CC w/o human intervention. No, there is no real harm in putting in a voice channel, other than wasting your time (and a little bit of the radio's time as well).

ok- so if AAC restrictions are unfamiliar to you, then it sounds to me something is getting screwed up during the import process.

 

[snoopyII]

Just so I understand better: is the issue here that it is liable to try to affiliate / "register" in Harris parlance with these sites (since you didn't set Unit Registration: Never on them), or just that those sites might not carry the TGs you want?

Sorry, you lost me here. Yes, affiliation = BAD. Yes, if you get busted affiliating ( and you're not supposed to be like 95% of the population here) you are liable.

Ideally, you'd want to program every channel that could be a control channel, but programming voice-only channels will probably slow down the search.

What "every channel that could be a control channel" means depends on system infrastructure. Every Motorola system I'm familiar with around my way has a primary control channel and three alternate control channels which can carry voice if they're not in use as the control channel. You'd want to program all 4. Harris infrastructure seems to always have every repeater capable of being a control channel.

Usually this is indicated in the Radio Reference database, though -- you'll see either four frequencies in red with a "c" on the end, or all of them. Those are what you want to enter.

correct.

 

[phirephoto]

Again, it depends on who built the system, Harris, Motorola, etc.. From what I see, in the RRDB, EBRCS is a Motorola built system. A voice channel cannot become a CC w/o human intervention. No, there is no real harm in putting in a voice channel, other than wasting your time (and a little bit of the radio's time as well).

ok- so if AAC restrictions are unfamiliar to you, then it sounds to me something is getting screwed up during the import process.

So when I go to create a system, WA Network is a dropdown and it's blank. I can't manually type in there to create a WA Network. Should I be able to type a WACN in there? That's the same even if I create a new personality.

 

[merlin]

I am smack in the middle of something very similar. The guist I get is the XG-100 will do the job. So will the XL.
BK>
Using RPM 14 and RPM2, both must be installed on the same computer WITH the AAC.
The ID in the AAC must be the same or neither will work with the others .PRS. Check that there is no security lock on either .PRS.
BK>
I use 14 for everything Harris (excluding older radios)
As suggested, use fixed proscan.
BK>
My state system is multi site Moto, I NAS 2 sites with XG-100M
How I laid this out is 'one system'
Trunked sets I have 4 entries, one of those is the second site.
City, county, state, and site 4. (a neighbor site to 1)
First 3 have the CC, alt CC, and voice channels. Site 4 has different CCs etc.
>P25 group sets labeled same as trunked sets.
City has all TGs for 3 surrounding cities. County has all TGs and state has all wanted TGs
Site 4 has 6 TGs and growing.
"NOTE" This is also the panel, under P25 group options for every sinle entry, UNCHECK TRANSMIT.
Be sure system ID (hex) is properly set.
Default channel IDEN sets:
Be sure you have the right base frequencies, offsets, and channel spacing set.
At #9, is the same except channel spacing and far right I select TDMA 2 slot, for phase 2
All of this is a rework of a basket case .PRS. Sadly I never could get drag and drop to work so spent many hours
copy/past to this new codeplug.
You will need all the info you can get for your system and sites, and known to be current.
I use DSD+FL to get stuff like system ID, region, site #, NAC etc. plus neighbor sites CC frequencies, group IDs etc.
May be unorthodoxed to some, but this setup does work well, and yes, I have a boatload of lowband, weather, ham repeaters.
plus a couple test frequencies, both analog and digital.
Cheers.

 

[merlin]

Just for a heads up, the RR database for ICAWIN is 60% wrong, Frequencies, TGs.
This is why I use DSD+ to get the working system information.
May not be the case with most systems, but if this one is bad, ???

 

[fog]

Sorry, you lost me here. Yes, affiliation = BAD. Yes, if you get busted affiliating ( and you're not supposed to be like 95% of the population here) you are liable.

My apologies, I think I worded my question badly. My question wasn't meant to be about whether affiliating on a system you have no authorization for was bad; I agree it is. Let me try again.

In the post I had quoted, you wrote "ECC works great for legit SU's, absolutely miserable for NAS." I was essentially asking if you could add a "because..." onto the end of that. (I'm asking because I'm still wrapping my head around this part of the Harris ecosystem and I want to learn more, not because I disagree.)

One possible answer is "because it may end up on a site that doesn't carry the talkgroup you're interested in, which is somewhat annoying."

The other possible answer is "because even though you carefully set everything up for NAS, if it roams to a site you haven't programmed, it will try to affiliate with it, which is very dangerous."

I don't intend to use the "Enhanced" search; I'm just trying to fill in the blanks in my mind about how the different options work.

 

[snoopyII]

The first answer is more correct than the second, its actually a very accurate answer.. The second answer, is no, if it were to roam onto a unprogrammed site, it would not try to affiliate given the system and group parameters are correct.

Merlin brings up a couple of valid points. On group sets - even if the system is set to NEVER, IF you have any group checked to Transmit - it WILL try and affiliate regardless of what the system setting is. As soon as you select that group, the radio goes to town. and RR DB is great, not perfect, there are some mistakes, out of date info, new, changed, missing, info. Use publicly available tools and do some research for the best results, particularly when creating a system scan list.

 

[snoopyII]

So when I go to create a system, WA Network is a dropdown and it's blank. I can't manually type in there to create a WA Network. Should I be able to type a WACN in there? That's the same even if I create a new personality.

Options>P25 Wide Area Network Options

 

[redbeard]

Sounds like OP has a cracked version of RPM 14c and a legit version of RPM2.

 

[phirephoto]

Options>P25 Wide Area Network Options

I don't have that

 

[redbeard]

I don't have that

View attachment 151232

It's not under Options, it's under Lists. P25 WAN then there should be a create option in the middle of the screen.

 

[phirephoto]

It's not under Options, it's under Lists. P25 WAN then there should be a create option in the middle of the screen.

Oh - I see. Yeah, it's greyed out. I can't create, nor can I modify the systems I imported from RPM14. Is there something I need to do in AAC?





I created a new access policy, and did License Options / Update License, but that didn't seem to make any difference (that's about the only obvious thing I see to do in AAC).

Thanks