nikronzo
Active Member
well when was the last time a Motorola exec or salesman had their life depend on the product they peddle and profit from?
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New APX models ?
- Thread starter mbnv992
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One time I had a couple HT200's. Those things are tougher than anything. Solid bricks. Two channel and you knew when you changed the channel. Giant knobs. Plastic was incredibly thicker than an HT220. "Use em as wheel chocks for a train". Seriously they were bricks. I have a couple MT500's but those HT200's were BRICKS
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Outerdog
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Aren't you the same guy constantly advocating for LE encryption on all channels? How does that work on an HT200?
GlobalNorth
Active Member
Some think it is nostalgia, some think it is obstinance, etc. This is not about wideband VHF analog v. narrowbanded 700 digital.
As a long time trainer in use of force, firearms, EVOC, and other subjects - I've learned that in the worst possible moments, people revert to long time practices, habits, and training.
Take a rookie cop, firefighter, paramedic, etc. Put them into a given vehicle for two years and have them work hard. Then take them and throw them into a model updated vehicle/new vehicle with all different radio and siren/light controllers; then watch.
I don't care if the example employees you use barely managed to earn a GED or have a post-graduate certificate from an Ivy League university, they are going to slow down and stumble through what was previously learned EVOC functions and radio operations. Add in complexity like all this interoperability nonsense and it can get worse. Example - Officers are working a possible shooting on a residential street. FD and EMS get called to treat Pts., but the PD supervisor wants them to come in one way, stage for armed escort, and then go in. In the old days, it was relayed through dispatchers, then it became one supervisor calling a battalion chief on a cell phone, and now thanks to Motorola Solutions, it is all interoperable and supposedly "seamless", but it isn't.
The PD supervisor has to clear PD dispatch and notify that Officer P is leaving the freq to another 'deck'. Officer P then has to clear FD alarm to let them know they are up on their deck and needing to speak to battalion to have them stage at a specific location. Officer P has to start through the menus to get to a given FD channel for Chief Q. Once done, both Chief and Officer have to scroll back to reach their operational frequencies. If PD commander R needs to update FD Chief Q, the exercise begins again. Yes, a APX 8000 is a cool radio and can talk to lots of people, but this isn't an Amateur Field Day, it is life and death and seconds really do count. How many of your lowest level employees can switch through channels, decks, and menus without critical thought and while under stress?
This is where having simplicity itself or a lot of training is critical. Employees turn down their radios, they go to the wrong channels, they forget or get interrupted, etc.
Firearms are the same damn way - take a revolver shooter and give them an auto pistol and Firearm Instructors can go nuts trying to get everyone up to speed. Even going from a Glock pistol to a S&W auto has its pitfalls and can take a week of training to resolve for some. New TASERs? Same thing. New impact batons? Them too.
Events like the Highland Park sniper are used to sell interoperability and at certain levels it can be useful as all heck, but every employee needing to have a 100 kHZ to 100 GHz portable? Nope.
Motorola needs a 48 or so channel APX single band portable without menus and a NVG capable LCD top screen that shows channel information and name at a decent price. If someone wants geofencing, OTAR re-keying, FPP, or other upgrades; let them buy it and add it on through a tech shop or dealer or buy the expensive all band, nuclear isotope powered SATCOM version.
As a long time trainer in use of force, firearms, EVOC, and other subjects - I've learned that in the worst possible moments, people revert to long time practices, habits, and training.
Take a rookie cop, firefighter, paramedic, etc. Put them into a given vehicle for two years and have them work hard. Then take them and throw them into a model updated vehicle/new vehicle with all different radio and siren/light controllers; then watch.
I don't care if the example employees you use barely managed to earn a GED or have a post-graduate certificate from an Ivy League university, they are going to slow down and stumble through what was previously learned EVOC functions and radio operations. Add in complexity like all this interoperability nonsense and it can get worse. Example - Officers are working a possible shooting on a residential street. FD and EMS get called to treat Pts., but the PD supervisor wants them to come in one way, stage for armed escort, and then go in. In the old days, it was relayed through dispatchers, then it became one supervisor calling a battalion chief on a cell phone, and now thanks to Motorola Solutions, it is all interoperable and supposedly "seamless", but it isn't.
The PD supervisor has to clear PD dispatch and notify that Officer P is leaving the freq to another 'deck'. Officer P then has to clear FD alarm to let them know they are up on their deck and needing to speak to battalion to have them stage at a specific location. Officer P has to start through the menus to get to a given FD channel for Chief Q. Once done, both Chief and Officer have to scroll back to reach their operational frequencies. If PD commander R needs to update FD Chief Q, the exercise begins again. Yes, a APX 8000 is a cool radio and can talk to lots of people, but this isn't an Amateur Field Day, it is life and death and seconds really do count. How many of your lowest level employees can switch through channels, decks, and menus without critical thought and while under stress?
This is where having simplicity itself or a lot of training is critical. Employees turn down their radios, they go to the wrong channels, they forget or get interrupted, etc.
Firearms are the same damn way - take a revolver shooter and give them an auto pistol and Firearm Instructors can go nuts trying to get everyone up to speed. Even going from a Glock pistol to a S&W auto has its pitfalls and can take a week of training to resolve for some. New TASERs? Same thing. New impact batons? Them too.
Events like the Highland Park sniper are used to sell interoperability and at certain levels it can be useful as all heck, but every employee needing to have a 100 kHZ to 100 GHz portable? Nope.
Motorola needs a 48 or so channel APX single band portable without menus and a NVG capable LCD top screen that shows channel information and name at a decent price. If someone wants geofencing, OTAR re-keying, FPP, or other upgrades; let them buy it and add it on through a tech shop or dealer or buy the expensive all band, nuclear isotope powered SATCOM version.
Exactly
GlobalNorth
Active Member
Quite well, actually. Rolling code Transcrypt comes to mind. And yes, ALL PS should be encrypted. Folks in Europe have been dealing with this for years.
nikronzo
Active Member
All public safety???
18bravo
Member
😂😂😂😂 the meth is strong with this one.
DeoVindice
P25 Underground
Explain.
celestis
Member
Taking cues from European regulators is just about as good an idea as playing with fire
ElroyJetson
Getting tired of all the stupidity.
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I am reminded of the old adage, "Train the way you will fight, for you will certainly fight the way you have trained."
Radio operation under duress is hardly much different shooting drills under duress. If it's not muscle memory, you're going to fumble it.
That's why I'm also firmly in the KISS camp. Keep It Simple, Stupid.
It's funny that a county that managed to get along well with four VHF channels went to a trunked system and suddenly can't live without 20 talkgroups. (This could describe hundreds of counties, can't it?)
I personally like lots of options and always have highly customized codeplugs in my radios. I'm a radio technician/geek/technology buff. But I'm not a patrol officer. If I were, I'd like to have my duty radio set up for the absolute minimum number of channels/talkgroups and options possible. Yes, give me channel announcement, please. That's certainly worth it.
Never underestimate the ability of a salesman to sell a government customer a lot more than he really needs.
Never underestimate the ability of the guy in charge of specifications to ask the vendor for capabilities they don't offer.
Radio operation under duress is hardly much different shooting drills under duress. If it's not muscle memory, you're going to fumble it.
That's why I'm also firmly in the KISS camp. Keep It Simple, Stupid.
It's funny that a county that managed to get along well with four VHF channels went to a trunked system and suddenly can't live without 20 talkgroups. (This could describe hundreds of counties, can't it?)
I personally like lots of options and always have highly customized codeplugs in my radios. I'm a radio technician/geek/technology buff. But I'm not a patrol officer. If I were, I'd like to have my duty radio set up for the absolute minimum number of channels/talkgroups and options possible. Yes, give me channel announcement, please. That's certainly worth it.
Never underestimate the ability of a salesman to sell a government customer a lot more than he really needs.
Never underestimate the ability of the guy in charge of specifications to ask the vendor for capabilities they don't offer.
mbnv992
Also known as MT2000 man on Batlabs since 2001+
THANK YOU ! Hahaha
Would be interesting to See if they are going to EOL the 6000BN/8000/8000H models now. I would highly doubt that though.
I thought those were multi band, my mistake
The legacy APX design is too popular to be discontinued on a whim. MSI will continue to push the "latest and greatest" NEXT, single or multi-band, however there are still countless 6000 and 8000 models being ordered every day, and that trend likely won't slow down anytime soon. Unless MSI makes a monumental blunder and prematurely discontinues them, forcing agencies to other manufacturers, which I suppose is always a possibility.
I'll go on record as stating that the Saber line of radios were the best Motorola radios ever made. Absolute units, you could beat the F out of them and they would still function, and officers could knock the Sh*t out of a suspect on the head with one and then still PTT call for EMS.
As far as P25 goes, the ASTRO Saber was one of the best.
The APX Next is going to be a disaster IMHO. Check out some of the Youtube videos of the boot time for the radio. I believe the radio is Android based, and it literally takes as long as an Android cell phone to boot up before it's fully functional. That's just not going to fly with officers who grab one out of the charger and want to head off to duty. They might be good for some EMA manager or whatever, but for the patrol officers that thing is going to be a mess if a department deploys them to the masses.
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
The radio portion boots up within 5 seconds like any other APX BN and users can immediately PTT and receive calls. It takes about 35 seconds to get past the "APX NEXT" and "Motorola Solutions" splash screen. You are correct, it is based on a proprietary fork of Android 10, but is locked down so no third party applications can be installed, and no access to Google play, etc.
I always get a kick out of a new trunking system that goes online for a department and they have 231 talkgroups assigned to the department. It's ridiculous, confusing for everyone involved, and doesn't solve any real problem.
99% of law enforcement government entities like a county or city need:
A talkgroup for each dispatch area
A talkgroup for talk-around for each area
A handful tactical talkgroups for working incidents or tactical situations
A zone of 16 mutual aid talkgroups that can be scheduled and assigned for special events and inter-agency coordination
That's it. Now, granted, some of the largest departments in the country like NYC, LA, Chicago, Houston etc have different requirements, but you get my drift.
Let's use the Dallas, TX Police Department as an example. They have 12 UHF channels for 98% of all their operations, and a few talkgroups for their detectives on a trunked system, and that's it. I bet their officers can reach their hand on their hip and change channels to one of those 12 via muscle memory without looking, without a single issue.
Let's use the Fort Worth, TX Police Department as an example. They have almost 150 talkgroups: 16 talkgroups assigned for each patrol area (sixteen!), and then almost 50 talkgroups for all kinds of the different sub-departments etc. Why? It's nuts and serves no real usability purpose.
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