New GMRS User Questions

[Wrightsrockets]

Hello! My Name is Steve. I have recieved my FCC call sign WSIQ311. I ordered the Midland Mxt115 bundle and the 3 pack of Midland GXT1000 handheld.
My family and I build high power rockets. We travel to launches towing a trailer with the rockets and motors. 5×8 steel frame, aluminum body and roof. I modified it for multiple day power supply. It has solar, and vehicle charging (diode protected) a 100 AH LiPo 12vdc, switched, and fused power distribution, lights, and charging capabilities.
I am L2 certified in rocketry, I stand at times as Launch Control Officer, Range Safety Officer, and I help other people at the away pads. We all also launch and recover our own rockets.

Communication between the away pads (1500') and LCO has always been difficult. We use cell phones currently.
I park my trailer near the Launch Control table (Wilson FX)
I want to use the handhelds to communicate between the club officers, ( also they are my friends) and have the mobile base station on in the trailer so my wife and kids hear and speak with me when I am at the away pads.
I know my family is authorized for 10 years now. Can my friends use my handhelds, to communicate with me, or do they need to register for a call sign if they will always be talking with me or my family on our owned radios?
I think as long as I announce the call sign and we stay in one place (Olmstead KY, Elizabethtown KY, and Centre Alabama) I won't be causing others any problems.

I am very new to this, and I don't want to step on toes, or be disrespectful to others.

I decided to go this route after my cousin got his HAM radio license and I became curious.

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond. I am glad to find this place.

Steve

 

[Wrightsrockets]

Another use for the radios will be when traveling to launches, sometimes we bring other kids along. Sometimes we take the Tacoma with trailer, and my wife drives the 4runner. We could use the handhelds to talk to each other, can the mobile base (in trailer) act as a repeater to increase the range of our handhelds in the vehicles?

 

[vagrant]

Your friends could use FRS radios and talk with you legally. GMRS and FRS share the same frequencies. The difference is the radios. GMRS approved radios can use removable (improved) antennas as well as more power output on certain frequencies. One must use their GMRS callsign when using that type of radio. With FRS, no callsign is required.

I recommend your group use a shared PL tone on an agreed channel/frequency to avoid interference from others. While not 100%, it is better than open squelch.

 

[Wrightsrockets]

Your friends could use FRS radios and talk with you legally. GMRS and FRS share the same frequencies. The difference is the radios. GMRS approved radios can use removable (improved) antennas as well as more power output on certain frequencies. One must use their GMRS callsign when using that type of radio. With FRS, no callsign is required.

I recommend your group use a shared PL tone on an agreed channel/frequency to avoid interference from others. While not 100%, it is better than open squelch.

Thank you. I would set up the radios on one channel, with a locked security code, then keypad lock the radios to volume, transmit, and recieve. Is that right? If we want to the GMRS channels, each would have to register with FCC, but FRS channels (lower power transmit) we would be fine. I am learning and would be very happy if someone could link protocol and how to make sure we don't cause problems for others.

Thanks again.
Steve

 

[alcahuete]

Can my friends use my handhelds, to communicate with me, or do they need to register for a call sign if they will always be talking with me or my family on our owned radios?

The FCC is very clear.

Any individual who holds an individual license may allow his or her immediate family members to operate his or her GMRS station or stations. Immediate family members are the licensee's spouse, children, grandchildren, stepchildren, parents, grandparents, stepparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, and in-laws.

Unless your friends fall into one of those categories, they cannot use your call sign or equipment on GMRS. As was mentioned above, your friends can use FRS, but that will have limited power, etc. If you're launching those types of rockets, surely your friends can afford the $35 or whatever the cost is these days.

 

[Wrightsrockets]

The FCC is very clear.

Any individual who holds an individual license may allow his or her immediate family members to operate his or her GMRS station or stations. Immediate family members are the licensee's spouse, children, grandchildren, stepchildren, parents, grandparents, stepparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, and in-laws.

Unless your friends fall into one of those categories, they cannot use your call sign or equipment on GMRS. As was mentioned above, your friends can use FRS, but that will have limited power, etc. If you're launching those types of rockets, surely your friends can afford the $35 or whatever the cost is these days.

Yes absolutely, the cost is not a issue. I am asking questions to make sure I am very clear, not trying to assume I know if that makes sense.
Example one, 3 handheld, one mobil base.
4 radio on the same FRS channel, with same security code X. Flat ground, line of sight, 1500-2000' separation. Should we all be able to communicate clearly? No callsign required, causing no problems for others?

Second scenario
3 handheld, one mobil base, 4 radios same GMRS channel, same security code X. Flat ground, line of sight, 1500-2000' separation. My family can listen, and transmit. Anyone standing LCO or Range Safety can listen, but not transmit without a call sign.

Can a rocket club (registered non-profit) get a call sign so that the members are allowed blanket transmit when in operations?

We have FAA clearance, standing waivers to specific altitude, weather go/no go, and a notice to airmen is issued.

We meet once a month from 9-till dusk, or we run out of motors.

The reason for all the questions is there are many college teams, and high school teams in huge competitions. I want a quick easy way to communicate when something goes wrong. Sometimes a 15 pound rocket does not eject it's chute and they come in fast. The college and high school teams have a mentor, but they have to create thier own systems, and build them. Testing new ideas can result in, well, not so great outcomes.

I am trying to figure out a way we can use this system to enhance safety, and at the same time get more rockets up and down. Some of these teams drive 4-6 hours, then set up takes several hours, then they drive home.

Sometimes a rocket will land (under chute) 4500' away. The fields are crop land or sod. Rolling hills make people disappear, and they must be recovered by walking. I want to make sure someone isn't walking over a hill right as another rocket goes up. (Required distance from launch depends on motor class)

If we could register our club that would work? Maybe it isn't legal though.

 

[Wrightsrockets]

Well that answered that.



+11

To use GMRS radios, a non-profit club needs to ensure all operators within the club have individual GMRS licenses, as they are issued to individuals only. A single club license is not applicable in this service. Each individual member wishing to operate GMRS radios would need to apply for their own license from the FCC.

 

[Wrightsrockets]

I wanted to ask about mounting in my trailer as well. I just don't not understand ground plane yet.

The antenna I ordered is the midland ghost Midland MXTA25 3dB Gain Ghost Antenna | Midland Radio

It comes in the bundle with mount. The battery for the trailer is grounded directly to the frame with soldered copper ends on the cable, and also to a ground distribution block, (positive straight it's own distribution block heavy inline fuse)

Does that type of antenna require a ground plane, and will the aluminum roof work. It is screwed to the steel frame.

Sorry for so many questions, but I am completely inexperienced in radio. I was a sonarman on submarines, but that is a whole different can of worms.

Thank you for help!

Steve

 

[alcahuete]

Yes absolutely, the cost is not a issue. I am asking questions to make sure I am very clear, not trying to assume I know if that makes sense.
Example one, 3 handheld, one mobil base.
4 radio on the same FRS channel, with same security code X. Flat ground, line of sight, 1500-2000' separation. Should we all be able to communicate clearly? No callsign required, causing no problems for others?

Second scenario
3 handheld, one mobil base, 4 radios same GMRS channel, same security code X. Flat ground, line of sight, 1500-2000' separation. My family can listen, and transmit. Anyone standing LCO or Range Safety can listen, but not transmit without a call sign.

Can a rocket club (registered non-profit) get a call sign so that the members are allowed blanket transmit when in operations?

We have FAA clearance, standing waivers to specific altitude, weather go/no go, and a notice to airmen is issued.

We meet once a month from 9-till dusk, or we run out of motors.

The reason for all the questions is there are many college teams, and high school teams in huge competitions. I want a quick easy way to communicate when something goes wrong. Sometimes a 15 pound rocket does not eject it's chute and they come in fast. The college and high school teams have a mentor, but they have to create thier own systems, and build them. Testing new ideas can result in, well, not so great outcomes.

I am trying to figure out a way we can use this system to enhance safety, and at the same time get more rockets up and down. Some of these teams drive 4-6 hours, then set up takes several hours, then they drive home.

Sometimes a rocket will land (under chute) 4500' away. The fields are crop land or sod. Rolling hills make people disappear, and they must be recovered by walking. I want to make sure someone isn't walking over a hill right as another rocket goes up. (Required distance from launch depends on motor class)

If we could register our club that would work? Maybe it isn't legal though.

You shouldn't have any issues with 1500' to 2000' with either FRS or GMRS, especially assuming you are on flat, open sites without a lot of obstructions in between. 4500' away, who knows, if you're using the low power FRS. In open areas, you should be fine out to a mile, but that just depends.

There are no club call signs or anything like that anymore on GMRS. If you have a non-profit organization or something for your rocket club, you "might" be able to get a Part 90 license (business band). In that case, you can hand out radios to members of your choosing without issue. Everybody is operating under the company's license. But you also can't use the cheap FRS/GMRS radios for that. You're now looking at more expensive, but also higher-quality radios. Licensing for Part 90 isn't nearly as straight-forward as GMRS, so you usually have to pay somebody to handle the licensing for you, unless you really know what you're doing.

The rocket stuff is fun. I used to go out to the Lucerne Valley here in California and observe their launches. Super fun!

 

[K4EET]

Hi @Wrightsrockets and welcome to Radio Reference!

If you have not done so already, you should read the rules and regulations for FRS and GMRS. You can find them in CFR 47 Part 95 here:

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

Pay particular attention to Subpart A (General Rules), Subpart B (FRS), and Subpart E (GMRS).

Never have flown large scale rockets but I have done a lot of flying Estes model rockets with various size engines. Rocketry is fun!

 

[Wrightsrockets]

You shouldn't have any issues with 1500' to 2000' with either FRS or GMRS, especially assuming you are on flat, open sites without a lot of obstructions in between. 4500' away, who knows, if you're using the low power FRS. In open areas, you should be fine out to a mile, but that just depends.

There are no club call signs or anything like that anymore on GMRS. If you have a non-profit organization or something for your rocket club, you "might" be able to get a Part 90 license (business band). In that case, you can hand out radios to members of your choosing without issue. Everybody is operating under the company's license. But you also can't use the cheap FRS/GMRS radios for that. You're now looking at more expensive, but also higher-quality radios. Licensing for Part 90 isn't nearly as straight-forward as GMRS, so you usually have to pay somebody to handle the licensing for you, unless you really know what you're doing.

The rocket stuff is fun. I used to go out to the Lucerne Valley here in California and observe their launches. Super fun!

Thank you. Yes sir, Rockets are a blast. I think the best solution is get all club officers convinced to register a call sign with the FCC.

 

[KK4JUG]

Thank you. Yes sir, Rockets are a blast. I think the best solution is get all club officers convinced to register a call sign with the FCC.

I believe that's the best solution, too. In addition to the rocket activity, the radios would be ideal for personal or "non-rocket" use.

 

[Wrightsrockets]

Hi @Wrightsrockets and welcome to Radio Reference!

If you have not done so already, you should read the rules and regulations for FRS and GMRS. You can find them in CFR 47 Part 95 here:

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

Pay particular attention to Subpart A (General Rules), Subpart B (FRS), and Subpart E (GMRS).

Never have flown large scale rockets but I have done a lot of flying Estes model rockets with various size engines. Rocketry is fun!

I read that, Thank you!

 

[Wrightsrockets]

I believe that's the best solution, too. In addition to the rocket activity, the radios would be ideal for personal or "non-rocket" use.

That is exactly what I will attempt to do.

 

[mmckenna]

Does that type of antenna require a ground plane, and will the aluminum roof work. It is screwed to the steel frame.

Yes, it does require a ground plane, and the aluminum roof will work just fine for that. Doesn't matter if the roof is attached to the steel frame, or the battery negative, it just wants to see that flat plane of metal under the base of the antenna.

That should help that antenna work to its full potential and give you pretty good range. You can always upgrade that antenna and squeeze a bit more range out of this setup.

Sorry for so many questions, but I am completely inexperienced in radio. I was a sonarman on submarines, but that is a whole different can of worms.

Thank you for help!

That's what we're here for, happy to help.

 

[KK4JUG]

Another thing to help you is the lack of infrastructure. I'm assuming you'll be away from civilization and those urban things that severely interfere with radio transmissions (power lines, buildings, etc.) will be lessened.

 

[kb3ouk]

At that range and terrain you're dealing with, sounds like a good case for MURS radios instead of GMRS/FRS or Part 90. I have Retevis RT27Vs and they are great for about a 1/2 mile portable to portable and over 2 miles portable to a base antenna (1/4 wave ground plane at 20 feet) over rolling terrain and woods.

 

[Wrightsrockets]

Music City Missile Club > Introduction
The Olmstead site is over a mile. Pad to Launch Control is 1500' gentle rolling crop land.
The Elizabethtown site is a sod farm, launch control 1500' away and 30' up from launch pads. This is a pin of the launch pad area. The launch control is 1500 up hill clear line of site in front of the equipment barns.

37.739781,-85.912151

 

[K9KLC]

Music City Missile Club > Introduction
The Olmstead site is over a mile. Pad to Launch Control is 1500' gentle rolling crop land.
The Elizabethtown site is a sod farm, launch control 1500' away and 30' up from launch pads. This is a pin of the launch pad area. The launch control is 1500 up hill clear line of site in front of the equipment barns.

37.739781,-85.912151

If you can get everyone that is involved and not family licensed, GMRS will work at those distances. If that becomes a problem, as recommended above MURS would likely work also. Between the two, I'd go with GMRS it will likely come in handy other than just rocket type things.

 

[Firebell2110]

Thank you. I would set up the radios on one channel, with a locked security code, then keypad lock the radios to volume, transmit, and recieve. Is that right? If we want to the GMRS channels, each would have to register with FCC, but FRS channels (lower power transmit) we would be fine. I am learning and would be very happy if someone could link protocol and how to make sure we don't cause problems for others.

Thanks again.
Steve

MURS radios would help. Also I use them all the time. Don't hear anything on them though, but you might want to give that radio service a try!!!!!!!