New 'Replacement' for FRS and Bubblepack GMRS?

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toydriver_det

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Range

K8PBX said:
As info, the TriSquare 900MHz eXRS Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum (FHSS) 2-way radios are now available. Their VP of sales sent me an email today with the following information:
Most of the reviews on the Best Buy site note as a con the short range of the radios.
A real test of usable range would be on a cruise ship or in a urban area with all the buildings and other radio traffic to interfer with transmissions.
 

b52hbuff

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toydriver_det said:
Most of the reviews on the Best Buy site note as a con the short range of the radios.
A real test of usable range would be on a cruise ship or in a urban area with all the buildings and other radio traffic to interfer with transmissions.

I got them and I think they are ok. I managed to get ~1/3 mile in suburban environment. I let my daughter stay and home and I managed to walk away in our neighborhood. So the signal had to penetrate residential housing.

The voice quality is 'ok'. It is a little metallic sounding and weak. But the privacy aspect is AMAZING. So the radio remains quiet until someone on the other end actually speaks.
 

b52hbuff

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Popular Communications ran a story on these radios. More information here:
http://www.popular-communications.com/PC Highlights March08.html
PopComm’s November 2007 cover story, “Digital Two-Way Radio Technology Reaches Consumer Market” covered the emerging trend of new 900-MHz FHSS (Frequency-Hopping Spread-Spectrum) radios becoming a serious license-free alternative to FRS/GMRS radios. Picking up where that article left off, this article will review one such radio, the TriSquare TSX300.
 

rescuecomm

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The Popular Communications article pretty well surmises what this thread has discussed. I still think they will have a use especially in festivals, cruises, and theme parks.

Bob
 

bneilson

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Now that these radios have been out for a bit are there any new thoughts or comments?

Good / Bad / Ugly?

Reading through the thread they seem to be about equal to FRS radios with the benefit of having more channels.
 

N2DLX

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Remember that these radios are not digital. They're narrowband FM modulation with FHSS. You're not actually digitizing the voice like with a P25 or Nextel system.

eXtreme Radio Service (eXRS) two-way radios use proprietary Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum (FHSS) in the ISM band (900 MHz frequencies). This FHSS system combines the power of digital technology with narrow band FM modulation technique.

So again, the only digital part of these radios is the FHSS and the talkgroup/squelch system used to mute unwanted calls on the same frequency.
 

n1das

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Remember that these radios are not digital. They're narrowband FM modulation with FHSS. You're not actually digitizing the voice like with a P25 or Nextel system.

eXtreme Radio Service (eXRS) two-way radios use proprietary Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum (FHSS) in the ISM band (900 MHz frequencies). This FHSS system combines the power of digital technology with narrow band FM modulation technique.

So again, the only digital part of these radios is the FHSS and the talkgroup/squelch system used to mute unwanted calls on the same frequency.

Good catch! That helps explain how they can be made so cheaply too.
 

bneilson

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Batery Life?

So I picked up a pack of the TSX300 and did some testing tonight. My group here in Utah is looking to do a bit more in-depth testing in a few weeks.

Upon initial tests the range performance is very equal to FRS radios. However at the fringe areas the eXRS seems to totally drop out where the FRS is still somewhat copyable.

I have noticed a large issue with the battery life though. In one night of testing I had two batteries go dead, but didn't even drop one bar on the FRS radios. Anybody else experiencing a the same issues with the battery life?
 

rescuecomm

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The guys are right about the 800-900 mhz stuff not getting out on simplex. One of the local government agencies uses the Motorola XTS2500 800mhz radios for communications at a large festival. When I worked it with them, I was taken aback by the much shorter range versus the VHF high band squad WT's we usually used. Yeah, in this case the $2000.00 radio has less range than the $300.00 radio. I would say to use the MURS radios but they are probably only legal in the continental US (cruisers beware!). The TriSquare units have their place. It is too bad they didn't go a little tougher on the case and give it more battery capacity.

Bob
 

Mike_G_D

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trisquare eXRS

Ok,

I'm pretty savvy on this stuff having worked on digital modulation using PI/4DQPSK and a TDMA multiplexing format in the past but I admit to being a tad "corn-fused" by what I am reading about these TriSquare radios. On the one hand, yes the "narrowband FM" seems to indicate an analog FM variant yet on the other hand you read this from the March, 2008 issue of Popular Communications - the article reviewing these units (and reprinted on the TriSquare website):

"The transmitter’s microphone audio is digitized,
modified by a DSP algorithm to
extract only the most useful information,
summed with a digital timing and position
signal, and time-compressed to allow
proper hop framing and provisioning of
the control data (caller ID, private call,
etc.) within each frame. The receiver’s
DSP extracts the modified audio, performs
digital noise reduction, and expands it
back to the original voice signal timing
(slightly delayed after processing)."

Also, from the same article, the specs read as follows:

"Transmission protocol: Half-duplex TDMA
• 4.0 kHz FM RF deviation (nominal)
• 3.0 kHz compressed audio bandwidth (nominal)"

Ok, I guess you could apply TDMA in an analog fashion (is the hopping considered "time domain"?; I hadn't thought of it like that as to me it is more like frequency domain - I guess the timing of the hopping sequence is "time domain"...?), technically, but the description in the article is confusing to me (just me - I admit ignorance here, ok - just asking - feeble brain syndrome, etc.). Am I to infer, here, that the audio is digitized simply to allow it to be processed in the digital domain, compressed, noise reduced, etc., and then converted back into analog narrowband FM to be transmitted and then is re-digitized in the receiver so that the receiver's DSP can expand the audio, clean it up, and strip off the hop frame timing signaling and spits out the analog audio? So, the DSP, in this case is merely acting like a trumped up compressor/decompressor? So if so, and one were to actually demodulate the FM using a normal narrowband FM receiver (disregard the hopping issue - lets say the hop is stopped) then you would hear the audio but, well, highly compressed and with, what, some, I guess, audible signalling, what, tones, subaudible data bursts,...???

Anyway, I wish someone would get one of these and "stop the hop" and park it on a spectrum analyzer and see what it is - I would imagine there is a testing mode they could be put in to do this but it would be, of course, proprietary. Of course the article could be misleading, lack detail, or even be completely incorrect. And marketing being able to essentially change the laws of the physical universe (I know, I've seen them do it, to my utter amazement, but, then again, I'm just an idiot tech type so what do I know!) the info can be, well, um, highly compressed, massaged, recoded, and packetized in the "marketing domain" ("marketized"?).

-Mike
(just admitting my extreme ignorance here, nothing to see, move along, move along...)
 

SkipSanders

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They're required to 'hop' or they'd have to be lower power. The power limit they use is allowed only for 50% duty cycle, as I recall. They don't transmit constantly.
 

Mike_G_D

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They're required to 'hop' or they'd have to be lower power. The power limit they use is allowed only for 50% duty cycle, as I recall. They don't transmit constantly.

Yes, I know, but I imagine there is a special test mode for lab testing and factory maintenance. Maybe not, but many other freq. hopper type beasties (like some cordless phones, etc.) have such test modes.

I worked on a freq. hopping DSMR system using TDMA digital plus frequency hopping and it was tested quite a bit with the hop stopped.

Even if the power is reduced to a fraction of the total it doesn't matter for what I want to see on a spectrum analyzer with modulation applied - attenuator and cable direct between DUT and analyzer so no OTA FCC issues.

-Mike
 

JASII

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I haven't looked into this much for some time, but what are the best choices right now for legal, license free units for rural areas? Is it still 2 watt MURS radios? And, if it is, are the choices in new MURS radios still pretty scarce?
 
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I'd like to see 900 Mhz License Free Repeaters and Repeater Capable Portables. Maybe using some sort of Cellular Phone technology Similar to the Engenius Cordless Phone System.

When Using Spread Spectrum on 900 MHz you are allowed up to 4 Watts ERP. 1 Watt TPO and 6db of Gain from the antenna System.

I have several Engenius phone setups and they work really well just with the rubber duck on the base. I have not tried to use the outdoor antenna setup yet.

Supprised /\/\otorola has not done something like this with their DTR series.
 

avguy

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Is it still 2 watt MURS radios? And, if it is, are the choices in new MURS radios still pretty scarce?
Yes, MURS is still limited to 2 watts.
Many low power business radios can be set to MURS frequencies.
I have Motorola XTN, CP100 and BPR40.
 

prcguy

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A friend of mine saw my Trisquare TSX-100 units and bought six of them. He asked me about making a repeater out of two and my opinion is the receiving unit will get trashed by the transmitter hopping on it and its not worth trying. He did anyway and claims there is no degradation with two units connected together and they repeat just fine.
The TSX-100 internal antenna connection lends itself nicely to attaching miniature coax and an SMA chassis connector at the top of the radio. If this works out imagine mounting two radios configured as a repeater in shield boxes at the top of a tower with two good 900MHz antennas separated vertically for isolation.
prcguy
I'd like to see 900 Mhz License Free Repeaters and Repeater Capable Portables. Maybe using some sort of Cellular Phone technology Similar to the Engenius Cordless Phone System.

When Using Spread Spectrum on 900 MHz you are allowed up to 4 Watts ERP. 1 Watt TPO and 6db of Gain from the antenna System.

I have several Engenius phone setups and they work really well just with the rubber duck on the base. I have not tried to use the outdoor antenna setup yet.

Supprised /\/\otorola has not done something like this with their DTR series.
 

N2DLX

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A friend of mine saw my Trisquare TSX-100 units and bought six of them. He asked me about making a repeater out of two and my opinion is the receiving unit will get trashed by the transmitter hopping on it and its not worth trying. He did anyway and claims there is no degradation with two units connected together and they repeat just fine.
The TSX-100 internal antenna connection lends itself nicely to attaching miniature coax and an SMA chassis connector at the top of the radio. If this works out imagine mounting two radios configured as a repeater in shield boxes at the top of a tower with two good 900MHz antennas separated vertically for isolation.
prcguy

Hmm.. sounds perfectly legal to me.. :roll:
 
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N_Jay

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A friend of mine saw my Trisquare TSX-100 units and bought six of them. He asked me about making a repeater out of two and my opinion is the receiving unit will get trashed by the transmitter hopping on it and its not worth trying. He did anyway and claims there is no degradation with two units connected together and they repeat just fine.
The TSX-100 internal antenna connection lends itself nicely to attaching miniature coax and an SMA chassis connector at the top of the radio. If this works out imagine mounting two radios configured as a repeater in shield boxes at the top of a tower with two good 900MHz antennas separated vertically for isolation.
prcguy

Now, if you can just find a timing line or two, you might be able to get them to work in TDD.
 

Hornhonker

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I'd like to see 900 Mhz License Free Repeaters and Repeater Capable Portables. Maybe using some sort of Cellular Phone technology Similar to the Engenius Cordless Phone System.

When Using Spread Spectrum on 900 MHz you are allowed up to 4 Watts ERP. 1 Watt TPO and 6db of Gain from the antenna System.

I have several Engenius phone setups and they work really well just with the rubber duck on the base. I have not tried to use the outdoor antenna setup yet.

Supprised /\/\otorola has not done something like this with their DTR series.

They do have a 7 inch half wave whip available for the DTRs
 
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