New user needs advice

[Michiganrailfan]

It's great to be a part of Radioreference. I've been lurking for a while and finally signed up. You guys do a great job, esecially on the WIKI....I've been reading it a great deal.

I'm new to shortwave, but seasoned at scanning. I just bought a HomePatrol, after having a Radio Shack digital trunking scanner for 3 years.

Now I'm bit by the shortwave bug. I need some advice on a couple things.

I'm a newbie - a lazy newbie - with not a lot of free time on my hands. I'd like to get my feet wet by starting with a good receiver that I can listen to late at night while in bed. I checked out lots of reviews online, and am leaning towards something in the middle - something well above the cheapie portable but well below the big bucks tabletop. I'm guessing a good middle place is a radio costing around $100? Or do I need to spend $300?

After reading lots of reviews, I started looking at two Radio Shack items: the Grundig G6 Buzz Aldrin edition (on sale for $60) and the Grundig S350. As you can imagine the reviews are mainly good. What turned me off about the S350 was the wobbly tuning knob....seems like a cheap piece of junk. So I bought the Buzz Aldrin.

I get it home and it performs great - as long as I'm 20 feet outside the house - inside noise is very bad at my house. So, I went back the web, read about antennas and noise, and basically followed the directions: try shutting off everything electrical in the house, one thing at a time. Well, I did this, and the noise level is still pretty bad. I'm better off listening to the radio outside.

On the web, I read there are many other ways to fight this problem - use of an exterior antenna seems to be the best move forward.

So - here's my question.......I'm about ready to return poor Buzz Aldrin ... and take my time learning about what to do next. I should mention that I'm having trouble reading Buzz's small display. And I need smaller hands to push the tiny buttons. I'm looking for something more beefy from the ergonomic perspective.

So.....I'm wondering if I need to begin spending big bucks on another radio. Are there other radios more beefy in display / buttons and also less prone to interior noise? Or should I just sit in my car ?

Thanks

 

[corbintechboy]

I'll give you my view. I have been listening for many years.

Your questions are good ones indeed. Some chokes on the antenna leads are sure to reduce a host of noise.

As far as radio, some of the best right now are SDR radios. They do very in price and give a lot for the money. Let's not forget the RX320D (though not a true SDR) is a great little box. I have a softrock (SDR) and an RX320D and I can tell you that there are places where each shines. For utility decoding nothing really beats the 320, for DX nothing beats the SDR.

One of the things that you may not like about the SDR route (or the 320 for that matter) is you have to marry to a PC. When bang comes to buck, SDR or 320 is really hard to beat.

If you are looking into getting serious with your listening, stay away from portables! They can make decent rigs for travel but hooking up an external antenna to a portable can quickly over load the front end if not careful (with the exception of the Sangean ATS-909).

Really your questions depend on what you really hope to accomplish. If you ever hope to take the hobby to the next level and do some decoding then spend now smile later, if you simply want to listen then anything may work within reason. But do know as I stated above that most portables are not up to the task of a bigger antenna (except the 909).

 

[ridgescan]

CTB has excellant things to ponder-but it is hard to do bedside listening with a computer-dedicated rig. IMO the portables easily overload. I think a Grundig Sattelit 750 would be perfect with a randomwire (30-50ft #10 copper) strung up outside and a balun like CTB suggested, and 50ohm cable lead like RG8X. This radio I think would serve well for bedside-even has that look.

 

[SCPD]

I would consider something like this: Alinco DX-R8T Alinco DX-R8 Receiver

If money is an issue, then you may want to check out on EBay some of the classic SW receivers: Drake R8 series, Kenwood R-5000, Icom R71A, JRC NRD-525/535/545, etc

Either way, if you're serious about the hobby then expect to pay at least a few hundred dollars. An antenna can be built for quite cheap these days.

The PAR End-Fed antenna is pretty cheap and is a great starter antenna if you're not technically-inclined: Par Electronics EF-SWL End Fed Dipole SWL Antenna. Par EF-SWL.

(Just plug in some RG-8 or RG-213 coax and you're good to go.)

Experimenting with antennas (that work for you) is just one aspect of SW that is quite challenging.

 

[SCPD]

CTB has excellant things to ponder-but it is hard to do bedside listening with a computer-dedicated rig. IMO the portables easily overload. I think a Grundig Sattelit 750 would be perfect with a randomwire (30-50ft #10 copper) strung up outside and a balun like CTB suggested, and 50ohm cable lead like RG8X. This radio I think would serve well for bedside-even has that look.

Just to be clear though, I would consider the 750 a portable SW radio. It's not a receiver per se.

Since the OP said he was in a noise-prone environment, then I would seriously consider this a last resort. Yes, the price is good and it may look "cool" but you can invest that $300 more wisely, imho.

These types of portables have very little in the way of noise-blanking or limiting circuits. A noise-blanker and a good notch filter can really make the difference some times.

One of my first decent SW radios was a Yaesu FRG-100B. These can be picked up on EBay for pretty good deals. They lack a built-in keypad so you can't enter frequencies in directly but for its time, it was a very sensitive receiver and does quite well as a starter rig.

Here's a link: Yaesu FRG100 Communications Receiver FRG-100

(The link is to the first model. I would avoid the non-B model. It had enchancements that really made a difference.)

 

[Michiganrailfan]

thanks for the advice

Wow....thanks for the great suggestions everybody.

I'm blown away by SDR....I wasn't aware of this at all. Before buying anything, I want to spend some time learning more about this.

So let me see if I get this straight.....with SDR, a new user can spend much less on SDR than a fancy table top.....and get nearly the same performance? If that's true.....I'm better off allocating more money towards an outside antenna? Will SDR replace conventional receiving as we know it? Will I end up someday getting an SDR "ap" on an I-phone? (just plug my I-phone to an antenna?)

One thing I like about conventional listening is hand spinning a dial and then "landing" on a strong signal, listening to that signal for a while, and eventually hearing the announcer say the location station I'm tuned to.

Let me see if I get this straight....with SDR, some software will have a database of all-English stations....all of them listed on the computer like a spreadsheet...so all I need to do is click on a given station in that spreadsheet and the SDR automatically tunes in? What happened to using my fingers to spin a handwheel?

One thing that looks cool is the scanning option with SDR......you get a real-time visual display of the spectrum....allowing you to "see" high intensity peaks so you can decide to tune into a given peak if desired. This alone can hook me.

One more thing: what is a fartcan?

Bottom line: if it is your job to attract people into SWL, I'd say you all just completed a slam dunk. I'll end up buying something.....and I'm sure I'll remain hooked on SWL for some time to come.

Thanks a bunch

Cheers

 

[gcgrotz]

How come nobody mentioned the R-75? For not a lot more money you get a top notch real receiver. Just not too portable.

 

[Token]

I'm blown away by SDR....I wasn't aware of this at all. Before buying anything, I want to spend some time learning more about this.

So let me see if I get this straight.....with SDR, a new user can spend much less on SDR than a fancy table top.....and get nearly the same performance? If that's true.....I'm better off allocating more money towards an outside antenna? Will SDR replace conventional receiving as we know it? Will I end up someday getting an SDR "ap" on an I-phone? (just plug my I-phone to an antenna?)

And well you should be blown away by SDR, it is, in fact, revolutionary.

I would not go as far as to say a new user can spend "much" less on an SDR and get the same performance. Keep in mind that very low end SDRs like the SoftRock40 are very limited in ability. Amazingly cheap, and decent performers, but very limited.

But it is possible to buy a lower end SDR, like the RFSpace SDR-IQ, and get performance in many aspects that equal or even exceed tabletops costing several times as much. Of course, there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch, and lower cost SDRs like the SDR-IQ also have issues. Research is key.

An antenna is always worthy of improvement. The best, highest end radio in the World will not hear much without a decent antenna.

Will SDR replace conventional receivers as we know them? Absolutely, eventually. That does not mean all SDRs will be tied to computers. It is possible to make an SDR with a dedicated front panel and micro controller that looks like a conventional radio with a tuning knob, but is an SDR in function. This gives the advantages of an SDR without being tied to a separate computer. The military has several radios in the field that do this already. The advantages of SDR are many, the shortcomings few. In some fields, such as RADAR, SDR based receivers have already become the dominant form, with superhet receivers being relegated to certain specific task.

Let me see if I get this straight....with SDR, some software will have a database of all-English stations....all of them listed on the computer like a spreadsheet...so all I need to do is click on a given station in that spreadsheet and the SDR automatically tunes in? What happened to using my fingers to spin a handwheel?

That is a function of the software used to control the SDR, not the SDR itself. And there are several different software packages out there, some include the station database type of function you have described, some do not.

Having the station database does not preclude you from tuning manually with any of the packages I have seen or used. It just means you may not have to if you do not want to. Of course, tuning with SDRs is most often done with the keyboard (up/down arrows or simply enter the desired freq) or with the mouse (left/right click or spin the scroll wheel). Naturally, clicking on the desired signal on the waterfall display is also possible. However, there are tuning knob options you can use if you really want to. For example I use the Griffin Technology PowerMate as a tuning knob.

One thing that looks cool is the scanning option with SDR......you get a real-time visual display of the spectrum....allowing you to "see" high intensity peaks so you can decide to tune into a given peak if desired. This alone can hook me.

Yes, this feature alone is worth going to SDR, not so much the spectral display, but the waterfall that most packages have. It is a feature that you once had to work for governments to have access to, and now anyone can have it. Plus, it increases the "new station" rate like you would not believe, particularly in the area of utility listening. Before you had to be tuning across the right frequency at the right time to catch short duration transmissions as are common for military type traffic. Now you can see the signal at its first word even if you are not on the right freq, just near it. Click on the momentary signal and you are there.

But, there are some negatives to SDR also. You just have to do your research and make sure you understand it.

T!
Mohave Desert, California, USA

 

[SCPD]

Here are some demo videos of the Excalibur SDR:

WiNRADiO WR-G31DDC 'EXCALIBUR' Receiver

 

[ridgescan]

How come nobody mentioned the R-75? For not a lot more money you get a top notch real receiver. Just not too portable.

I was afraid to since you cant get a new one for less than $600 now-OP eluded he will spend $1-300..plus the OP said he didnt want to get too deep-at least that's what I got.
Far as the Sattelit750 being a portable Nick-yeah but it is tabletop style and has DSP. Look on youtube and watch them in action-I think it is a nice entry level radio. Have you actually seen one in action Nick? You are telling the OP to take chances on someone else's used rigs-buyer beware there buddy. I would rather have a new radio with a warranty for my $300. In this video the guy does a side by side comparo to a "portable"-the 750 aint bad at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQQvsmDp9Vw&feature=related

 

[SCPD]

I was afraid to since you cant get a new one for less than $600 now-OP eluded he will spend $1-300..plus the OP said he didnt want to get too deep-at least that's what I got.
Far as the Sattelit750 being a portable Nick-yeah but it is tabletop style and has DSP. Look on youtube and watch them in action-I think it is a nice entry level radio. Have you actually seen one in action Nick? You are telling the OP to take chances on someone else's used rigs-buyer beware there buddy. I would rather have a new radio with a warranty for my $300. In this video the guy does a side by side comparo to a "portable"-the 750 aint bad at all.
YouTube - Eton Satellit 750 vs Eton e1.

Ridge, the goal here is to provide him with a radio to KEEP him in the hobby not to have him run away screaming! :lol:

Sarcasam aside, yes I have played with one in person. Our local R/S had one on display and I played with it for about 20 minutes or so. It was "okay" but the audio was questionable. The airband receiver seemed weak. WWV at 15 Mhz was decent.

For a "portable" rig, yes, it's a decent unit. For its price however, it's not worth the investment. It's $300! A fair price would be 150-200 for that radio -at most!

If you don't mind shelling out the $$$ then by all means pick one up and play with it. It can be run from batteries and has a built-in antenna. Just don't be surprised if you return it.

If the OP is willing to "invest" in a SW receiver why stop at mediocre?

Ridge, aren't you the one who picked up a used Icom R71A? That's working out pretty good, no? Do you want to send me your R71A and ALL of your other radio gear, and I'll send you the 750 instead?

BTW, I'm very skeptical of "DSP" in a portable rig. Strangely though, I can't seem to find any specifications on the radio from any dealers.

The word is mentioned on the Amazon description but that's odd -- even Eton/Grundig doesn't mention DSP in their own brochure... smell fishy?

http://etoncorp.com/upload/contents/307/G_SATELLIT750spec.pdf

If you want a taste of SW radio then pick up the G6 Buzz Aldrin edition. That won't break your bank and will give you a good introduction. I'm pretty sure those have been on sale recently at R/S.

 

[ridgescan]

The 71a I "picked up " was given to me. I am so lucky that it is a good one-but I cannot see what my equipment has to do with the OP wanting a decent entry level radio? He said he did not want to get in too deep and wanted to spend up to $300. To the OP sorry about the pissing match here and sorry about suggesting the 750. Discount my suggestion and disregard the many videos that show the 750 because Nick has spoken and as usual I can say nothing right.
Here is a collection of opinions from hams themselves on this radio-funny..on page two N0CEK says "nick-pick"
http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/7256?page=1
...but I suppose all the reviews on this site that were good ones are wrong as well.
By the way Nick-a display model inside a Radio Shack? Off what antenna-the whip? What real chance did that radio have off the whip in a place loaded with running TVs and possibly computers, flourescent lights everywhere etc? And if it turns out to not be what the OP wants he can return it. Could he return a used radio from ebay? No he cannot-THAT would send a guy "running away screaming".

 

[corbintechboy]

Here is the thing:

You direct someone new to the hobby to a "standard" radio and they find they like the hobby then they are left wanting much more. On the other hand if you direct someone to a decent rig and they progress in the hobby the radio with work right along with the advancement.

As far as getting more bank for the buck, I got myself an SoftRock RX Ensemble II and only paid $110 for the unit! You want to talk about bang for the buck? This little radio tunes the whole HF band and has excellent performance. I would venture to say it would easily surpass radios costing at the very least 5x as much.

I used been into HF for years and have learned something about people in that time. You have 2 types of people:

Those who love it
Those who hate it

I have never met a person whom says "HF is okay". Usually those whom embark on this adventure will advance in knowledge and will seek to get more into the hobby. Money up front is the way to go. Plus you end up with a feeling of knowing you could always get a return on your investment if you buy something desirable. There is no doubt in my mind that I couldn't turn around today and sell my Softrock for the $110 I have invested. I also believe I could easily sell my RX320D for the $200 I have invested in it. Why? Because they are both great radios. Now if I went out and bought XXXX portable from XXXX shop, I would not likely see that kind of return on my investment.

The RX320 is on par with the Icom R75 (per reading reviews as I have never had an R75) and definitely more selective with a much lower price. Let's also not forget that on top of the cost of the R75, you have to spend money to make the R75 worthy of good performance. This takes the price closer to $700++, the RX320 on the other hand is ready to go out the box. The R75 is a fine radio indeed, but not for everyone.

The SoftRock RX Ensemble II also is a great radio that is ready out the box (figuratively speaking).

 

[SCPD]

The 71a I "picked up " was given to me. I am so lucky that it is a good one-but I cannot see what my equipment has to do with the OP wanting a decent entry level radio? He said he did not want to get in too deep and wanted to spend up to $300.

A. He did not want an entry level radio. He bought the G6. He returned it because of the bad indoor RFI.

B. He asked if he "had" to spend $300 ... he wasn't setting a limit

To the OP sorry about the pissing match here and sorry about suggesting the 750. Discount my suggestion and disregard the many videos that show the 750 because Nick has spoken and as usual I can say nothing right.

I'm having an intelligent conversation here Ridge based on my experiences. I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive over this issue. We disagree on what is a good SW receiver - big deal. The OP is an adult and can make his own informed decision. Neither of us are forcing his hand.

By the way Nick-a display model inside a Radio Shack? Off what antenna-the whip? What real chance did that radio have off the whip in a place loaded with running TVs and possibly computers, flourescent lights everywhere etc?

Actually, the store counter is next to the glass entrance and the whip did fairly well considering it was in a building. The whip had to be fully extended to receive WWV and the airband. Does that mean I would pay $300 for it? Hell no.

Could he return a used radio from ebay? No he cannot.

There are at least two individuals on EBay that take buy/sell used SW receivers and refurbish them. I don't recall if they have a return policy but their policies are spelled out clearly in their ads.

Not everyone on EBay is a scam artist.

 

[hawkeye32]

Hi Michiganrailfan , welcome to RR!!!! I personally have a R-71A it is a very good radio, durable, has a good front end on it, and it does as well have filter settings , which may help in your RF noise in your home. My setup is a outdoor sloper antenna. Very inexpensive, but works very well.

 

[Michiganrailfan]

Thanks everyone for the great comments, great debate.

I have some research to do. Prices of SDRs vary a lot

The WIN RADIO WR G31 DDC Excalibur is $800
The RF SPACE SDR IQ is $500.
Softrock RX Ensemble 2 is $110

I'm not running away screaming. Still intrigued by SDR. I'd like to find a local person using one in action. I posted a note on the Michigan forum

Cheers

 

[Token]

Thanks everyone for the great comments, great debate.

I have some research to do. Prices of SDRs vary a lot

The WIN RADIO WR G31 DDC Excalibur is $800
The RF SPACE SDR IQ is $500.
Softrock RX Ensemble 2 is $110

I'm not running away screaming. Still intrigued by SDR. I'd like to find a local person using one in action. I posted a note on the Michigan forum

The pricing varies because the quality and capabilities vary. The three you have quoted just about define bottom cost/low performance, low cost/mid performance, and higer cost (but not top cost)/upper performance. Three fairly different units.

You should not compare the Softrock to the others, but the SDR-IQ and the Excalibur can, loosely, be compared.

I do currently own both the WinRadio Excalibur and the RFSpace SDR-IQ, as well as a couple of other SDRs (including the Microtelecom Perseus and the RFSpace SDR-14). I have used and did at one time own the Softrock, although not that specific package. I gave mine away to someone just starting out in the hobby.

Of the ones you listed the best is, as might be expected, the WinRadio Excalibur. It is the best of those listed in performance, features, and versatility. And if I could only keep one SDR of all the ones I own, not just the ones you listed, it would be the Excalibur. It is currently my most used SDR, however the SDR-IQ is a close second.

If the budget is an issue the SDR-IQ is a very good value. For recording small sections of spectrum I prefer the SDR-IQ to the Excalibur, but in every other way it is less good. Not a big difference mind you, but noticeable at times and under some conditions. In features the SDR-IQ is more "bare bones" than the Excalibur, and feels (and is) more aged. Still significantly better than the Softrock though. It regularly performs on a level at or above my Icom R-75 in most ways, although the R-75 is better under certain conditions and in certain specifications. Because of the SDR features and capabilities I would give up my R-75 before my SDR-IQ.

The Softrock is a bottom end, entry level, SDR. It has less good performance, although that can be corrected if you are willing to work with it a bit, all it takes is more money and hardware. It does NOT have complete HF coverage, being aimed primarily at ham bands. It is the only one you listed that relies on the sound card to get the IQ data into the PC, as such it has a more limited bandwidth and the performance of the unit is at the mercy of your sound card quality. The others you list do that specific work onboard, getting the unthrottled IQ data into the PC via the USB cable, and using the sound card to only reproduce the sound, not as part of the radio itself.

Now, all three SDRs you listed have wide-open front ends. This means they might, in high RFI areas (not the same as high noise areas), exhibit some performance that can be pretty annoying. However, the same would be said of almost every portable. If you live near a high power AM BCB station that can be a problem, but in that case the Excalibur is the obvious choice, it includes a filter specifically designed to reduce MW BCB issues, however that kills MW performance if you need to use it. An external MW BCB filter could be added to any of them though, again impacting MW performance.

If I have the answers I would be glad to address any questions you have.

T!
Mohave Desert, California, USA

 

[ridgescan]

Michiganrailfan I am happy you managed to pull some direction out of this. I hope you land a great rig and join the DX clan Nick I apologize for being defensive I don't want to fight-I just felt since he said BEDSIDE and $300 the only rig that came to mind was the 750. Hell it turns out even I was knocking this very radio 2 years ago when I bought the R75. But I have been reading reviews and watching vids of this radio and a lot of folks are enjoying it so I threw my opinion in here and that's it. OP is going for the computer radio so it's moot anyways.

 

[corbintechboy]

The Softrock is a bottom end, entry level, SDR. It has less good performance, although that can be corrected if you are willing to work with it a bit, all it takes is more money and hardware. It does NOT have complete HF coverage, being aimed primarily at ham bands.

Good write up except that portion. The Softrock I have covers the WHOLE HF spectrum. Ths one here is a newer model.

The performance of my softrock easily surpasses my RX320D. The RX320 is a well regarded radio for the bang/buck as well as utility and DX ability (providing antenna which is the case for any rig).

For weak signal DX I would pick the Softrock any day of the week. For utility I would have to give a slight edge to the RX320.

Here is what you get.

For $300+/- you could get an RX320 that is documented to be equal to/pull ahead of a $600+/- receiver (R75). Or IMHO you could get a cheaper Softrock (like mine full coverage) that can hang with a $300+/- receiver which in turn can hang with a R75.

Choice is yours but in all my years of radio (about 25 or so) the Softrock and RX320 are very impressive radios. Sure there are a Winradio out there that has more "virtual" knobs, there are radios that have more physical knobs. But really, really, given the exact same situation (antenna and all) would you really hear more then me? Would you SSB REALLY sound better then mine? Can I really sit there and justify a $XXXX price increase in the performance of one of those rigs?

I don't really think they would have anything that would "wow" me outta $500-800 dollars. It's about bang to buck for me and I think I would be hard pressed to find anything that would hear more then what I have. Some might do the hearing more spiffy then others but that is not the point.

 

[Turbo68]

I use the Icom-R75/Palstar-R30A/Ten Tec-320D + another 10 big receivers at least at my dads place which includes 2 Icom-R9000/Icom-R9500 these are all excellent receivers if u havent got right antenna on hf u are not going to get anywhere it doesnt matter what radios u have i am not an expert when it comes to specs but 35 years of experience in the hobby is a long time as for antennas i use the Wellbrook loops.

Regards Lino.