NJICS-Passaic County Simulcast

[NParkNJ]

Hello everyone, just a question.

If/when the Passaic County simulcast is completed(or if it is already), will I be able to hear the agencies further south of me, I could not hear on Ramapo alone? I know about different agencies allowed different affiliations.

What I’m asking is, say Little Falls, or Montclair, for example. Idk if they were ever allowed on Ramapo, or units ever affiliated to it. Because Ramapo and Montclair state will be a part of PC simulcast, does that by default mean those agencies will be heard?

Trying to understand this. Maybe another way to ask, since Ramapo will no longer be standalone, any agency that was once on a different simulcast(which is now part of PC), or standalone site(say only allowed on Ramapo), will be allowed now on every site(that is part of PC) since its a county wide simulcast? Correct?

 

[GTR8000]

I think you're overthinking this a bit. A simulcast cell is simply a collection of physical sites (called subsites) that will carry the same traffic across the entire cell. Any subscriber that is affiliated with that cell will be heard, doesn't matter which subsite they're actually communicating with...the entire cell is voted and broadcast across every subsite.

The Passaic cell will consist of Garret Mtn, Montclair State, Ramapo, and a new subsite at Echo Lake. At the moment only Garret Mtn and MSU are active as Site 17. Once they cut Ramapo into the mix, yes, the range of the coverage will expand.

Does that answer your question?

Edited to add: Agencies are not really "assigned" to sites, nor is it common practice to restrict which sites agencies can affiliate with. It's simply a matter of geography. The radios will affiliate with whatever the strongest signal is, doesn't really matter what site or cell that is. That's the reason why some talkgroups come and go on some sites, and aren't there 100% of the time while they may be carried on another site 100% of the time.

Multi-site P25 systems like this one are designed by nature to be as efficient as possible, and thus unless the admins force a talkgroup to be carried on site(s) full time, it's all based on affiliations.

 

[NParkNJ]

Got it. Thanks for clearing things up, GTR! @GTR8000

 

[GTR8000]

Let me simplify it a bit since my other post was wordy and a bit techy.

Once the Ramapo site is part of the Site 17 Passaic County simulcast, you'll hear all of the traffic that would've been carried on the Montclair State site when it was standalone. You'll also hear any traffic that is coming in on the Garret Mtn site, however since Garett Mtn is no longer part of the Site 1 West Orange simulcast, it's not going to be carrying the exact same traffic as it would've prior to switching simulcasts.

Basically, if Ramapo is the site you primarily monitor, you're going to hear more traffic in the future. But for those who normally received the Garret Mtn subsite of the West Orange simulcast, they might well be losing some traffic they were used to hearing if some of the agencies no longer affiliate outside of the remaining West Orange subsites.

 

[GTR8000]

Here's a visual aid. The yellow stars represent the Passaic County simulcast (Site 17). The black dots are standalone (aka ASR) sites. The orange diamonds represent the West Orange simulcast (Site 1), which of course no longer includes Garret Mtn.

Anything heard on one simulcast subsite will be heard on all other subsites in that cell. So if a talkgroup is active at MSU or Garret Mtn or (eventually) Echo Lake, it'll come across Ramapo as well.

It stands to reason that some degree of traffic from Essex County is no longer going to be carried on Garret Mtn, and so those who were listening to the West Orange simulcast exclusively off that site are going to lose that traffic also.

 

[NParkNJ]

Thanks @GTR8000 definitely puts it into perspective! Much clearer picture in my head. Appreciate it

 

[APX8000]

I just wanted to add to @GTR8000 that a subscriber (radio) can also be denied at certain sites for efficiency. No need for let's say Lower Twp in Cape May County to be allowed to affiliate in Passaic County on the other side of the State. Cape May Sheriff, yeah maybe since they transport but small PD, not really.

 

[markjrenna]

I am seeing my reception has degraded some with Garret Mountain removed from the WO simulcast. And I see three Essex towns on site 17 for now. They are North Caldwell/Essex Fells and Bloomfield. And Site 17 now has a better signal for me than WO. But much less traffic on 17 that I care about.

 

[N2NHL]

I am at location in Belleville where I am hearing all three simulcasts (West Orange, Passaic County, Union) pretty well. So far, I am getting good signal on PC Simulcast from here. I have heard PC Sheriff and Hawthorne pop up regularly, some occasional affiliations from Bloomfield. It's only been a week, but the listening dynamic is interesting.

 

[APX8000]

Reminds me of when Watchung was part of West Orange and then went to Union, people posted the same general comments. YMMV.

 

[CastorLB]

I just wanted to add to @GTR8000 that a subscriber (radio) can also be denied at certain sites for efficiency. No need for let's say Lower Twp in Cape May County to be allowed to affiliate in Passaic County on the other side of the State. Cape May Sheriff, yeah maybe since they transport but small PD, not really.

I generally agree that most of the time municipal agencies stay close to their jurisdictions so having a talk group only allowed on certain towers makes sense.

However, most municipal police agencies are responsible for picking up their own prisoners from wherever they get arrested so Lower Township can easily have to travel to Sussex to pick up someone on one of their warrants. Besides local detectives travel wherever the investigation leads and they also need to be able to maintain contact with their dispatch.

So, IMHO, municipal PD should either be permitted statewide access (not simulcast just access), or there should be some TG dedicated for when agencies need to travel outside of their geographic area. Guess this could be accomplished via the InterOps with state approval or there could be a statewide municipal PD TG or maybe ones set up by county so there would be a Monmouth County Municipal PD statewide, etc….

Also surprised SPEN isn’t patched into a TG

 

[nosoup4u]

I generally agree that most of the time municipal agencies stay close to their jurisdictions so having a talk group only allowed on certain towers makes sense.

However, most municipal police agencies are responsible for picking up their own prisoners from wherever they get arrested so Lower Township can easily have to travel to Sussex to pick up someone on one of their warrants. Besides local detectives travel wherever the investigation leads and they also need to be able to maintain contact with their dispatch.

So, IMHO, municipal PD should either be permitted statewide access (not simulcast just access), or there should be some TG dedicated for when agencies need to travel outside of their geographic area. Guess this could be accomplished via the InterOps with state approval or there could be a statewide municipal PD TG or maybe ones set up by county so there would be a Monmouth County Municipal PD statewide, etc….

Also surprised SPEN isn’t patched into a TG

I think the that is the point of the Statewide Sheriff Talkgroup (4089). I have heard Gloucester County use that talk group for prisoner transports out of their area.

I wish they would patch in SPEN full time, then I could hear North Bergen also

Those of us who have been at this a while will remember when they used to patch in SPEN to B2-9 for hours at a time.

 

[CastorLB]

I think the that is the point of the Statewide Sheriff Talkgroup (4089). I have heard Gloucester County use that talk group for prisoner transports out of their area.

I wish they would patch in SPEN full time, then I could hear North Bergen also

Those of us who have been at this a while will remember when they used to patch in SPEN to B2-9 for hours at a time.

Wondering if that TG is restricted to just sheriffs agencies then because I’ve never seen a PD affiliate to it. Maybe that’s all in the works, who knows. A SPEN patch should be there at least, it would help agencies with costs if they didn’t have to purchase multiband radios too.

 

[APX8000]

They could easily hop on one of the StateCom talkgroups if they really needed to talk back to their home agency, but a cell phone would serve that same purpose. And a system admin does't need resources being utilized to carry a talkgroup from an agency hundreds of miles away "just passing through" on a transport. If **** hits the fan with the prisoner in another jurisdiction they would be better off having access to the local jurisdiction they are in, vs talking to their dispatcher who is only going to relay the information. Again, 911 would serve better in this instance, or access to local agency via SPEN, which most have. And again, don't need clowns programming up their Baofang to key up a SPEN-1 "statewide" talkgroup via a patch.

 

[GTR8000]

What @APX8000 said. Dragging talkgroups all over the state is a total waste of resources, and would only truly be used a handful of times a year. The rest of the time? Some buff wanting to listen to Cape May from Bergen. There are interop/interagency talkgroups for roaming purposes. No PD car traveling 200 miles north needs to call back to his base as a matter of routine...use the phone.

 

[K2NEC]

They could easily hop on one of the StateCom talkgroups if they really needed to talk back to their home agency, but a cell phone would serve that same purpose. And a system admin does't need resources being utilized to carry a talkgroup from an agency hundreds of miles away "just passing through" on a transport. If **** hits the fan with the prisoner in another jurisdiction they would be better off having access to the local jurisdiction they are in, vs talking to their dispatcher who is only going to relay the information. Again, 911 would serve better in this instance, or access to local agency via SPEN, which most have. And again, don't need clowns programming up their Baofang to key up a SPEN-1 "statewide" talkgroup via a patch.

I like your logic however you have to consider that the people using these radios barely know how to operate it and need instructions on how to change a zone. Let's just say an officer doing a transport has some sort of emergency while enroute. His instinct and training is going to tell him to press the mandown button on the radio (hopefully). In that situation, he/she won't have the thought to take out their phone and call 911. It's easier to press the button and open the line of communication with dispatch and advise them that there is an emergency. Dispatch can then send the appropriate units that they need in whatever jurisdiction that the officer is located in. It also needs to be logged in the CAD that there was an incident that occurred and what action was taken. Either way, dispatch still needs to be notified.

And programming an e button on a statecom talkgroup is very much not a good idea.

 

[APX8000]

So your going to press an e-button on the radio on your agency talkgroup 100 plus mikes away to tell your dispatcher you have an emergency? Ok, I can hear the dispatcher now say, "Ok where are you ? What County is that town in?" They scramble to find that agency's emergency number (I don't think Cape May has Bergen on speed dial). Oh wait, Bergen doesn't dispatch Ridgewood, hang on let me transfer you. Dispatcher repeats again what's happening. OR, they can just dial 911, which would be quicker. Or I pick up my SPEN-1 radio and call the local agency myself, which I've done and works. Oh, and I never said program an e-button on StateCom. I was simply pointing out that there are talkgroups in existence that can be used for prearranged comms if needed that will cover outside a local area. And I know how to work my radios, just like I know how to run my guns, or be a pump operator, or set up a radio patch while entering a CAD incident, etc. TRAINING. Yeah, there are dummies in every profession. But don't lump us all in the "I don't know how to change zones" excuse.

 

[K2NEC]

So your going to press an e-button on the radio on your agency talkgroup 100 plus mikes away to tell your dispatcher you have an emergency? Ok, I can hear the dispatcher now say, "Ok where are you ? What County is that town in?" They scramble to find that agency's emergency number (I don't think Cape May has Bergen on speed dial). Oh wait, Bergen doesn't dispatch Ridgewood, hang on let me transfer you. Dispatcher repeats again what's happening. OR, they can just dial 911, which would be quicker. Or I pick up my SPEN-1 radio and call the local agency myself, which I've done and works. Oh, and I never said program an e-button on StateCom. I was simply pointing out that there are talkgroups in existence that can be used for prearranged comms if needed that will cover outside a local area. And I know how to work my radios, just like I know how to run my guns, or be a pump operator, or set up a radio patch while entering a CAD incident, etc. TRAINING. Yeah, there are dummies in every profession. But don't lump us all in the "I don't know how to change zones" excuse.

I dont know why you are getting so defensive and hostile. I'm just looking at it from a LEO point of view because I've seen it happen before. Sheesh.

 

[KC3ECJ]

I like your logic however you have to consider that the people using these radios barely know how to operate it and need instructions on how to change a zone. Let's just say an officer doing a transport has some sort of emergency while enroute. His instinct and training is going to tell him to press the mandown button on the radio (hopefully). In that situation, he/she won't have the thought to take out their phone and call 911. It's easier to press the button and open the line of communication with dispatch and advise them that there is an emergency. Dispatch can then send the appropriate units that they need in whatever jurisdiction that the officer is located in. It also needs to be logged in the CAD that there was an incident that occurred and what action was taken. Either way, dispatch still needs to be notified.

And programming an e button on a statecom talkgroup is very much not a good idea.

They should have access in case there's a large disaster where multiple agencies can respond.

 

[APX8000]

K2NEC...Explain how posting my viewpoint is defensive and hostile...because it differs from yours? I was sipping bourbon when I made that post as cool as a cucumber. As far as a large disaster, that is what all the gazillion VTAC, UTAC, 7/8 TAC/FIRE/MED, IR/NC, etc. channels are for.