OKC Ch 9 story - Fake PD Cruiser

[K5MAR]

Had a follow up on the news tonight ---

The towing company illegally towed the vehicle. Turned out, it's a demo car for a equipment installation shop. The guy is planning on taking legal action against the towing company.

:lol:

Now, that IS funny! Too many people have a hairtrigger reaction that something isn't right and react without knowing the facts. Just as some believe there is no legit reason to follow an emergency vehicle, even if the following is done in an entirely legal fashion (obeying all speed limits, traffic signs & lights, etc.). While I agree that John Q. Public is better off staying at home and watching the news, there are perfectly legal reasons for doing so, several of which I mentioned above. If you have a suspicion that the person has done something wrong (other than doing something you don't personally approve of), then report their actions and your suspicions to the police, and let them investigate.

Mark S.

Edit: Jeez, I hate 9's website! Two days now, and I still can't find anything about this story!

 

[CommShrek]

I do neighborhood patrol from time-to-time in my neighborhood, and have blue and amber flashing lights going when I do.

CLEET would consider that "security". They would also consider the fact that you are operating without a license. Can you say FINE, as in it's going to cost you? If you do have a license then you are still violating CLEET rules by using blue lights in our state. Can you say FINE again?

Show me in the Oklahoma statutes where you are allowed to use blue lights. You can not use blue lights on public roads in this state. What you are doing sounds illegal to me.

 

[Firecop203]

Several things here. First, it is not illegal to follow an emergency vehicle, as long as you don't break the law doing so. Getting "in the way" is something else entirely. As is running "code".

Mark S.

Please read this taken from Oklahoma State Law Title 47

§47-11-1108.

(a) The driver of any vehicle other than one on official business
shall not follow any fire apparatus traveling in response to a fire
alarm closer than five hundred (500) feet or drive into or park such
vehicle within the block where fire apparatus has stopped in answer to
a fire alarm.

(b) The driver of any vehicle other than one on official business
shall not follow any emergency vehicle or shall not purposely drive to
any location on a highway where an emergency exists which would
interfere with the free movement of authorized emergency vehicles or
any other traffic using the highway at that location. For the purpose
of this subsection the definition of emergency shall include traffic
accidents, airplane accidents, disasters, explosions, civil
disturbances and (without limitation by the foregoing) any other
related circumstances which tend to cause traffic congestion.

The purpose of this subsection is to eliminate sightseers and other
persons who do not have official business at the scene of an
emergency, and whose presence would tend to cause traffic congestion.

 

[dstew67]

Mark, do you remember what station you saw the story on? I looked and couldn't find a story on the web about it...

 

[mam1081]

It was on Ch 9 on the 10:00 news. First story on Monday (one of the last stories on), follow-up last night (one of the first stories on).

 

[dstew67]

CLEET would consider that "security". They would also consider the fact that you are operating without a license. Can you say FINE, as in it's going to cost you? If you do have a license then you are still violating CLEET rules by using blue lights in our state. Can you say FINE again?

Show me in the Oklahoma statutes where you are allowed to use blue lights. You can not use blue lights on public roads in this state. What you are doing sounds illegal to me.

I disagree. To fall under CLEET's juridiction, you must be employed to provide security. Since all my actions were volunteered, those actions nor I fell under 59 O.S. 1750. Further, the AG issued this opinion on the matter:

"The Oklahoma Security Guard and Private Investigator Act, 59 O.S. 1750.1 (1987) et seq. (the "Act"), governs the licensing of armed security guards. For the purposes of the Act a security guard is "an individual contracting with or employed by a security agency, private business or person to prevent trespass, theft, misappropriation, wrongful concealment of merchandise, goods, money or other tangible items, or engaged as a bodyguard or as a private watchman to protect persons or property." 59 O.S. 1750.2(5) (1987). "

 

[Nine29]

Sorry to barge in on your thread here, but in Michigan you would be pulled over and ticketed quickly if you are in possession of blue, red, or amber (under certain circumstances) lights. Apparently Oklahoma has no such laws:

http://www.wagnersafety.com/lights/laws.html

The LEO here frown heavily on anyone driving a personal vehicle resembling a police car. Our state legislature just passed a new bill also restricting the use of badges, symbols, patches, clothing or anything else that may give the impression of being an LEO. Our local news just did an expose on some whackers who had full uniforms, Crown Vics, badges, and even a "station" house. Kind of pathetic really...

 

[CommShrek]

I disagree. To fall under CLEET's juridiction, you must be employed to provide security. Since all my actions were volunteered, those actions nor I fell under 59 O.S. 1750. Further, the AG issued this opinion on the matter:

"The Oklahoma Security Guard and Private Investigator Act, 59 O.S. 1750.1 (1987) et seq. (the "Act"), governs the licensing of armed security guards. For the purposes of the Act a security guard is "an individual contracting with or employed by a security agency, private business or person to prevent trespass, theft, misappropriation, wrongful concealment of merchandise, goods, money or other tangible items, or engaged as a bodyguard or as a private watchman to protect persons or property." 59 O.S. 1750.2(5) (1987). "

So if what you are doing doesn't fall under "security", what exactly are you doing driving around town with blue lights flashing on your vehicle? I think you know what you are doing is wrong. I think CLEET and your local police department need to get your information dropped on their laps so they can decide exactly what it is that you are doing out there. I also think you know what they would say.

I notice you didn't say anything about the second part of my post. I wonder why.

 

[dstew67]

So if what you are doing doesn't fall under "security", what exactly are you doing driving around town with blue lights flashing on your vehicle? I think you know what you are doing is wrong. I think CLEET and your local police department need to get your information dropped on their laps so they can decide exactly what it is that you are doing out there. I also think you know what they would say.

I notice you didn't say anything about the second part of my post. I wonder why.

Feel free to drop my info in their lap. I ain't skeered!

To answer the question though, I wasn't driving around town. I was driving around our neighborhood. If you read back, I only talked about adding the blue light, not that it was already in use. Currently, we use a flashing amber light. We've been in operation for about 20 years, and nobody's complained. We're not there to act as law enforcers. We're there primarily as a frequent, but random presence to discourage thieves from casing the neighborhood. If something went down, we'd simply call the police. I don't think CLEET would have a problem with this. If they do, I suppose I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I know that OCPD doesn't have a problem with it.

 

[dbestfirefighter]

www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/index.asp?ftdb=STOKST47&level=1

chapter 12 has everything anyone would want to know about lights on a vehicle.

 

[KE5BGX_Robert]

Ya know at this point I really don't care who drives what....and with what color of light! This thread has gotten way outta hand and OT!

If the local PD doesn't have a problem with homeowners forming a neighborhood watch and partolling the streets then why should you.!?!?!?! I for one do walk my street! (yes my neighborhood has 1 street) When a vehical I don't recognize drive's in and parks I have a right to question it. We live on a private street and we (the homeowners) have the RIGHT to force anyone off our property(s).

IF someone is running around YOUR towns's streets and you THINK that car/truck/suv could be a fake then call your local PD and let them work it.

Just my 2 cents worth!


73's

Rob

 

[K5MAR]

Please read this taken from Oklahoma State Law Title 47

§47-11-1108.

/snip/

Firecop203: What part of my statement "as long as you don't break the law doing so" did you not understand? According to the state law you quote, it is permissible to follow an emergency vehicle at greater than 500 feet distance and park more than a block away in such a manner as not to interfere with the free movement of authorized emergency vehicles or any other traffic using the highway at that location. In addition, as a non-official vehicle, you can not use aux. lights, run stop signs or lights, exceed the speed limit, or otherwise act in a reckless manner.

As a former LEO I can tell you that you need to be aware of all the nuances of the law, not just the part that says what you want.

Before I joined the local PD (30 years ago) I made a living following emergency vehicles in my POV (photog for the Bartlesville Examiner-Enterprise then the Tulsa Tribune & World), so I've had this discussion many times, from both sides of the badge.

Now, if somebody does drive in a reckless manner or break any laws while attempting to follow emergency vehicles, then I say Nail Them! And I don't care what or who they are. We used to have an officer on our department who was a loose cannon, and got involved in several chases in his POV. I'd have nailed his *** as quickly as I would have any civilian. He shot and killed a suspect at the end of a chase (he was on-duty), and got shown the door shortly after.

On a lighter note, anybody remember the episode of Emergency! where Johnny got a ticket for following the squad when he was off-duty in his POV?

Mark S.

 

[car2back]

I agree this has gotten way OT, but since everyone is giving their 2 cents.....

Ya know at this point I really don't care who drives what....and with what color of light! This thread has gotten way outta hand and OT!

If the local PD doesn't have a problem with homeowners forming a neighborhood watch and partolling the streets then why should you.!?!?!?!

I am all for Neighborhood Watch programs, but they should be just that: a WATCH program. let the professionals do the real work; it's what they are paid for.

Driving with any sort of emergency equipment on your personally owned vehicle is illegal, not to mention it's dangerous and a stupid idea....I mentioned earlier we had a problem with one of the firefighters where I volunteer running to the station with a flashing orange mail-carrier light; We had another incident recently where a newer member was seen speeding with his hazard flashers on- Our Chief recieved a call from a concerned citizen and now that firefighter is on probation over the incident.

 

[mfolta1]

wow, i remember rocky,, used to be n5cg....preston group....been years since ive hammed..im still active here and there.

 

[OkRob]

wow, i remember rocky,, used to be n5cg....preston group....been years since ive hammed..im still active here and there.

Hey Mark. I think you've got him confused. Rocky has been WB5NJU for years. And he's at Mounds instead of Preston. You're thinking of Dave Horn, he used to be N5CG, it's W5AO now.

Wow, now we're really getting OT.

- Rob

 

[dstew67]

Guys, driving with "any sort of emergency equipment on your personally owned vehicle" is NOT illegal. You can put what you want on your vehicle. It's the use of that equipment that is regulated.

Further, there are circustances where actually using that equipment is not illegal.

Why is this so important to you guys? Why can't we simply make the point that I think everyone here can agree on? Don't hinder law enforcement in an investigation or any other government agency's response to an emergency situation. Can't we all just agree with that and not try to be lawyers?

In the end, I'm going to do what I want. If it ends up being illegal and I get in trouble for it, so be it. I'm willing to take responsibility for my actions. If you think I or anyone else is doing something wrong, report it to someone who can investigate it and then keep your trap shut. As long as it's not your emergency, or you're not personally adversely effected, it's just simply none of your business.

My earliest response was about where this thread got off topic, and for that I apollogize. If you don't like the thread though, you can always unsubscribe to it or stop reading. I think discusion is always good, unless it gets reduced to name-calling or childish behavior. After all, isn't that what a forum is all about? I'll also say one final thing about my posts. Sometimes I use dry sarcastic humor, and that doesn't get communicated very well on the web.

 

[iamhere300]

Wow

Wow. You have balls of steel my friend, or at least the .... wisdom of youth.

You approach a vehicle in your neighborhood, and ask them what they
are doing there? Not only is that breaking one of the basic premises of
neighborhood watch, ie, you never approach the people, you merely take
down the plate and description - and turn it over to police if needed, but
you risk your life doing it!

Just so we have it down, do you want a HAM radio funeral, or a theater funeral?

Ya know at this point I really don't care who drives what....and with what color of light! This thread has gotten way outta hand and OT!

If the local PD doesn't have a problem with homeowners forming a neighborhood watch and partolling the streets then why should you.!?!?!?! I for one do walk my street! (yes my neighborhood has 1 street) When a vehical I don't recognize drive's in and parks I have a right to question it. We live on a private street and we (the homeowners) have the RIGHT to force anyone off our property(s).

IF someone is running around YOUR towns's streets and you THINK that car/truck/suv could be a fake then call your local PD and let them work it.

Just my 2 cents worth!


73's

Rob

 

[car2back]

Title 47, Section 12-277 C

C. Flashing lights are prohibited except on:

1. An authorized emergency vehicle, as provided in Section 12-218 of this title;

2. A school bus or a church bus, as provided in Section 12-228 of this title;

3. Any snow-removal and construction, and maintenance equipment, as provided in Section 12-229 of this title;

4. A wrecker or tow vehicle while at the scene of an emergency or loading or unloading a vehicle in close proximity to traffic as needed for safety precautions or as a means of indicating the presence of a vehicular traffic hazard requiring unusual care in approaching, overtaking or passing, as provided in Section 12-218.1 of this title;

5. Any vehicle as a means of indicating a right or left turn, as provided in Sections 12-206.1 and 12-606 of this title;

6. Any vehicle as means of indicating the presence of a vehicular traffic hazard requiring unusual care in approaching, overtaking or passing, as provided in Section 12-220 of this title;

7. Any vehicle displaying side marker lamps which flash in conjunction with turn signal lamps or vehicle hazard warning lamps, as provided in Section 12-220 of this title;

8. A farm tractor or an implement of husbandry, as provided in Section 12-215 of this title; or

9. Any vehicle used while performing official duties as a rural or contract route mail carrier of the United States Postal Service, as provided in Section 12-218.2 of this title.

Which one does Neighbor Watch fall under :wink:

 

[mn2deep]

CLEET would consider that "security". They would also consider the fact that you are operating without a license. Can you say FINE, as in it's going to cost you? If you do have a license then you are still violating CLEET rules by using blue lights in our state. Can you say FINE again?

Just a little note to ponder. The Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training...CLEET does not have legislative or law enforcement authority in the state of Oklahoma. So, CLEET's rules are not binding on anyone but an employee of a Law Enforcement Agency that prescribes to them. Therefore, an individual acting in the positon of Neighborhood Watch couldn't possibly give a tinkers damn about CLEET.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[hoser147]

I guess it a free country and you can have your vehicle the way you want but as far as chasing emergency vehicles stay home and watch it on the news it is illegal in some states and makes it dangerous for the responders and the general motoring public. Rubberneckers can get themselves in trouble when they enter an area where there is an emergency happpening for instance fire hoses may be laid around your car or cause problems with a rural water relay. In Ohio we have had sting operations to make so people refrain from doing this for the reasons i just gave . Be Safe not sorry