Old Radios Recyling?

[sepura]

After a company goes digital; can the old analog radios be given to the radio company (ie: Motorola, Kenwood, Harris; ect) to be recycled to make into new digital radios?

Thanks

 

[SteveC0625]

After a company goes digital; can the old analog radios be given to the radio company (ie: Motorola, Kenwood, Harris; ect) to be recycled to make into new digital radios?

You just asked part of a question that has been rolling around in my head for over a year now since I got back in the emergency services game.

I think the question really should be: "What are we all going to do with this mountain of used but very serviceable gear that is being generated by the narrowband mandate and upgrades to digital or other formats?" The possibility of some kind of recycling is just one potential solution.

Fact #1: You can't throw it in a landfill. By federal law, electronics have to be recycled and there are standards for that. I do know there is a move afoot to require manufacturers of consumer electronics to accept their products and recycle them. I do not know if that includes commercial/professional radio gear.

I have been watching Ebay as a sort of yardstick of the sales of used stuff. Minitor II's alone have shown a huge trend. Where there maybe 20 of them available, there are now nearly 150 and that number grows daily. The prices are beginning to fall quickly. Minitor III's and IV's are going to fall in that category, but the sellers seem to think they are still worth a lot of money right now. They are kidding themselves, of course, as buyers discover what narrowbanding is all about and 1/1/13 grows nearer.

Same for the /\/\ GM300. (We are replacing our base station which is a GM300 so I am looking closer at that model.) More and more for sale and prices beginning to fall. Dozens if not hundreds of different radio models are all following this same trend. The market is being flooded now but the real deluge won't happen for another year.

So selling our used wideband stuff is quickly going to become nearly impossible if not already. It can not be used in the US which is the prime market. Overseas sales are shaky because you can't sell this stuff in many countries due to export restrictions. I guess that pretty much makes Factiod #2 to be: "There won't be much chance of selling it either."

Back to your original question: My thoughts are that recycling into useable radios is very unlikely. The technology in most of this wideband gear is already obsolete. Recycling individual electronic components is prohibitively expensive. Two-way gear has to be type-accepted for use by the FCC. If the manufacturers wanted to go that route, we would already have seen an extensive program of refurbishment to narrowband and corresponding type-acceptance of the new models. That has not happened and is also very unlikely to occur in the future.

OK, that's may take on the situation. I am very interested to hear what others have to say.

 

[radioman2001]

Unfortunately for other than Ham use, and maybe GMRS if the FCC doesn't block that too, or for receive only use these perfectly workable and usable radios are extinct. ( thank the FCC and the manufacturers for that) Our agency is chopping up our radios and sending them in as recycled metal. Perfectly good Spectra's, MRK's, MPA's, and even some Orion's and the big crime if they do it is the Mastr III repeaters. Even though the portables are permissable under the narrow banding rules since they are under 10 watts. Every action has an equal reaction, all those new radios displace the old ones and they then have to be dealt with. Just like the hybrid cars, all the money saved in fuel will have to be offset by the remediation of all those batteries which are hazmat.

The comment about the Minitor II and III and same IV's showing up on flea bay and not being worth anything is wrong. They can still be used as they are not outlawed by the narrow band rules, but most agencies, as is my FD are replacing all our pagers because of it. A total waste of money and resources.

The GM300?I am not sure if they had a 12.5 kc FCC designation, I will have to check.

 

[wuzafuzz]

A partial solution:
GIVE the old public safety or gov't radios, if serviceable, to hams. Specifically ARES/RACES groups. If the bands are right they can still use wide-band gear. Granted, in some places that would result in more gear than the hams could handle, but not everywhere.

 

[SteveC0625]

The comment about the Minitor II and III and same IV's showing up on flea bay and not being worth anything is wrong. They can still be used as they are not outlawed by the narrow band rules, but most agencies, as is my FD are replacing all our pagers because of it. A total waste of money and resources.

I see the law of supply and demand taking over. As there are more and more of them available, the price falls thus the "not worth anything" comment. The market for used WB Minitors is not likely to absorb even a small portion of what is and will be for sale. No disagreement that under many circumstances they are still pretty darned serviceable. There just won't be any resale value. Our II's are getting pretty sad as they are all at least 15 years old. The III's and IV's are OK, but nobody wants to trust a wideband only pager in a narrowband world. Where we are, pager reception is not a strong as we'd like. Distance and terrain are working against us. Yeah, a waste of money to force folks to NB in situations where NB does not matter.

The GM300?I am not sure if they had a 12.5 kc FCC designation, I will have to check.

Already researched it. There was a 12.5 only model but generally the 300's were mostly WB. Early on they offered a retrofit kit to NB, but that fell by the wayside when the FCC required type-acceptance of the refurb unit. It annoys me to no end to have to replace this radio.

We have a bunch of WB only portables, too. All comments above apply to them as well.

 

[SteveC0625]

A partial solution:
GIVE the old public safety or gov't radios, if serviceable, to hams. Specifically ARES/RACES groups. If the bands are right they can still use wide-band gear. Granted, in some places that would result in more gear than the hams could handle, but not everywhere.

I think you will find that there are going to dozens and dozens of WB radios available for each ham in the country. Probably way too many for anyone anywhere to ever utilize even a small portion of them.

 

[radioman2001]

You don't necessarly have to replace your portables, all radios under 10 watts are exempt. You will have to lower the TX deviation to 2.5kc max. We had done it with our Spectra's before they changed the rules again to eliminate them from use by prohibiting non 12.5 kc FCC designated radios. I had come up a reasonable fix, including replacing the RF board for the tolerance aspect and $2.00 worth of filters to make the RX narrow band.The audio is a little lower, but suffices quite nicely.
I personally wouldn't replace anything that I don't have to, but our agency has the money, they have been putting it in our budget each year since 1999. Even our MIII bases do comply, but won't have narrow band RX so they are being replaced also.

 

[SteveC0625]

All of our portables that have to be replaced are well over 15 years old so they have no FCC 12.5 designation. The Kenwood TK-260 (not a G so it is not NB capable) I carry is OK, but the battery is slowly dying and there's no reason to get a new one to keep this radio going. Our Kenwoods are all 4 channel and it's time we had at least 16 channels for the boots on the ground. We're ordering our new gear within the next month or so and should have it by late spring.

But it is a totally serviceable radio, and like so many others, will just sit on a shelf somewhere.

 

[SteveC0625]

I think my observations about the selling prices of Minitor II's on Ebay are being supported by the latest new listings. A couple of weeks ago, the asking price was typically around $60 or more. Today, a new listing has an opening price of $10 plus $5 shipping.

Another is for an opening bid of 99 cents plus $6 shipping but it shows a picture of a III or IV. Not sure what that guy is really selling.

Some fire department up in Canada just listed 4 Minitor ii"s and several portables and more for an opening bid of a penny plus $48 in shipping. It is a no reserve auction so someone will get a pile of gear of not much money.

I just watched a II with a charger amp sell for $31.50 including shipping.

The last new listing for today is 3 auctions, all by the same seller for Minitor II's with desk top chargers. Opening bid of $59 plus $11 shipping. I have my doubts that he will sell any of them, and he aleady has dozens of them listed at the same prices.

One more to mention: A couple of days ago someone listed 14 Minitor II's and a mix of 5 desk top chargers and 7 charger amps. The opening bid was $10 with shipping of $16.72. Unfortunately, the seller is a beginner on Ebay and put a reserve price on it. The auction has 7 bids and is up to $26 with the reserve still no met and two days to go. I will be surprised if the auction even gets to whatever reserve the seller set.

As I said, I believe the selling price of Minitor II's is dropping rapidly and the proof seems to be in the new listings.

My prediction remains that III's and IV's will follow suit in the next 18 months.

 

[Thayne]

After a company goes digital; can the old analog radios be given to the radio company (ie: Motorola, Kenwood, Harris; ect) to be recycled to make into new digital radios?

Thanks

Nah, the Chinese would never stand for it--

 

[kb0nly]

Used radio prices have CRASHED...

Anyone want some 100w Spectra's? I know a guy sitting on 80 of them that won't sell. They just aren't worth crap. I listed a few on eBay, they barely sell enough to cover the cost of selling them.

I used to sell Maxtrac's for $75-$125 each all day long on eBay, price depending on channels and features and power output and band and what accessories are included. But i hardly sold them for anything less than $75. Now i barely get $40-$50 each for them. Too many available on the used market.

Ebay was flooded with used radios. My state's surplus auctions have been filled with VHF gear, mainly due to the switch to the new statewide 800Mhz system, but also because of the wideband stuff getting dumped.

 

[FFPM571]

The only used radios that are still holding any value are the P25 capable radios. Even some of the older narrowbandable radios like DN model HT1000s are at best $150 Just 2 yrs ago they were over $300 ea

 

[burner50]

A partial solution:
GIVE the old public safety or gov't radios, if serviceable, to hams. Specifically ARES/RACES groups. If the bands are right they can still use wide-band gear. Granted, in some places that would result in more gear than the hams could handle, but not everywhere.

Or they could give it to an organization that has a need for "spare radios" for emergency uses...


I suggest contacting your local EMA, public health, red cross, etc.

 

[SteveC0625]

Or they could give it to an organization that has a need for "spare radios" for emergency uses...

I suggest contacting your local EMA, public health, red cross, etc.

A great idea, BUT....

They are all subject to the same narrowband mandate. They can not use these radios any more than the private businesses, state and local governments, fire departments, ambulance services, police departments, etc, etc etc that are also removing them from service.

In fact, a lot of the radios being removed from service will be coming from EMA, public health, red cross, etc.
All Public Safety and Industrial/Business licensees in 150 to 174 and 421 to 512 are required to go narrowband by 1/1/13. All of the agencies mentioned operate almost exclusively under Part 90 which is the primary group affected.


WirelessRadio.net - FCC Part 90 VHF UHF Radio Narrowbanding Info, Resources, & Compliance Updates for all the details on the narrowband mandate.

 

[zz0468]

Just based on the sheer numbers of radios needing replacement, it's clear that supply will far exceed demand. Most will probably end up getting scrapped, but there are some great bargains for hams. I don't really see a down side, from an amateur perspective.

From a manufacturing perspective, there's no reason in the world that they would re-manufacture older radios to be compliant with new rules. That would fly in the face of their primary goal to sell more radios. There MAY be some after market mods made available for some models that could be compliant. This has been done in the past, and they come complete with new FCC labeling. But I haven't been paying attention enough to know if anyone is doing that now.

 

[SteveC0625]

From a manufacturing perspective, there's no reason in the world that they would re-manufacture older radios to be compliant with new rules. That would fly in the face of their primary goal to sell more radios. There MAY be some after market mods made available for some models that could be compliant. This has been done in the past, and they come complete with new FCC labeling. But I haven't been paying attention enough to know if anyone is doing that now.

The two-way gear that we are discussing is at least 13 years old. The FCC required everything sold beginning around 1996-7 to be narrowband capable.

I have not heard of any current mods or refurbs available for gear that old to bring it up to NB compliance. The FCC ruled that anything modified to narrowband had to be type-accepted all over again which effectively stopped the manufacturers from doing anything in this arena. Motorola had a NB kit for the GM300, but dropped it when the FCC made that ruling.

Given the age of the radios affected, rebuilding them to NB is probably not cost effective anyway. Who wants to buy a refurbed 15 year old radio when new stuff is readily available and has a lot more capability in most cases.

It still saddens me to see perfectly serviceable gear suddenly become obsolete because of a mandate that won't buy anyone anything in many areas of the country.

 

[burner50]

A great idea, BUT....

They are all subject to the same narrowband mandate. They can not use these radios any more than the private businesses, state and local governments, fire departments, ambulance services, police departments, etc, etc etc that are also removing them from service.

In fact, a lot of the radios being removed from service will be coming from EMA, public health, red cross, etc.
All Public Safety and Industrial/Business licensees in 150 to 174 and 421 to 512 are required to go narrowband by 1/1/13. All of the agencies mentioned operate almost exclusively under Part 90 which is the primary group affected.


WirelessRadio.net - FCC Part 90 VHF UHF Radio Narrowbanding Info, Resources, & Compliance Updates for all the details on the narrowband mandate.

I'm not talking about for daily use.

I'm talking about in a catastrophe where hundreds of "Spontaneous Volunteers" show up and it would be best to be able to keep in contact with them.


Also known as an Emergency situation.

 

[SteveC0625]

I'm not talking about for daily use.

I'm talking about in a catastrophe where hundreds of "Spontaneous Volunteers" show up and it would be best to be able to keep in contact with them.

Also known as an Emergency situation.

I guess I did not explain myself as well as I could have.

After 1/1/13, it will be illegal to use these wideband only radios for any purpose.

Once the FCC begins issuing the new 12.5 Khz channels that will exist in between the existing 25 Khz channels, the wideband only radios will cause massive interference to adjacent channels.

And wideband only radios will not communicate well with narrowband radios.

There may be some limited applications for the under 10 watt radios, but if they have to talk to narrowband radio systems, they will almost certainly not work very well, especially several years down the road. I don't see emergency managers stockpiling equipment that will have known deficiencies in the years ahead.

As an emergency responder, the last thing I want in the middle of a major event is for some "Spontaneous Volunteer" with a 100 watt wideband radio disrupting my primary communications systems.

Our Fire Coordinator is also the Emergency Management Director for our county. I am working with him to help get our county moved up to narrowband operations. He is well aware of all the technical issues involved, and I know he will not accept wideband equipment for his emergency preparedness supplies. I doubt that others would either.

Much as I would like to see this suddenly obsolete wideband radio gear go to some good and noble use, it isn't going to happen.

 

[nbruark]

2 watt RF Power Limitation - NOT 10 watts

You don't necessarly have to replace your portables, all radios under 10 watts are exempt.

I believe the correct RF power limitation on VHF/UHF portables NOT subject to the 2013 Narrowbanding Mandate is 2 watts rather than 10 watts

Nick Ruark

More Narrowbanding Info and Resources are available at WirelessRadio.net - FCC Part 90 VHF UHF Radio Narrowbanding Info, Resources, & Compliance Updates

 

[Thunderknight]

You don't necessarly have to replace your portables, all radios under 10 watts are exempt. You will have to lower the TX deviation to 2.5kc max.

Where do you get this from? I have not seen a single thing from the FCC indicating that radios under 10 watts and/or portable radios, are exempt from narrowbanding.

Unless you can provide proof from the FCC or the Rules, please don't spread misinformation.

(Same to nbruark...I know of no 2 watt exemption either).

Oh, and some used radios may still have a market in Canada. Canada is, generally speaking, not undergoing the same narrowbanding mandate the US is.