Well. That sucks. Ha. I guess I will have to live with analog then unless maybe I can solve this issue with a directional antenna.
Onondaga County Trunked Reception
- Thread starter bradjtrammell
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Well. That sucks. Ha. I guess I will have to live with analog then unless maybe I can solve this issue with a directional antenna.
Each COUNTY has it's own control channel (and alt/voice frequency set), and therefore is its own simulcast cell. The cells are linked, and certain talk groups roam between them.
Not to be rude, but is that not what I said? It was implied by my statement.
A directional antenna usually is of little help unless the azimuths to all the interfering towers are well outside the beamwidth of the antenna and the interfering signals are relatively weak compared to the desired signal. If you are fairly close to a tower and the reception is mostly OK a directional antenna may make a marginal improvement.
I am within 3 miles of the local tower, I'm in the same town as it, and the surrounding towers (next closest tower is 12+ miles away in the opposite direction) are quite a bit off to the left and right of that tower (from my location). I may give this a try.
I didn't read it that way. You said "...same control channel systemwide for each county...".
Maybe you meant *countywide* (not *systemwide*) in the system has a CC, but that's not the way it seems to read on that phrasing.
Onondaga has a CC, Madison a different CC, Cayuga a different CC, Oswego a different CC, etc.
The example you gave, 460.500, is only for Onondaga County. Each other county has a different CC, and that CC (and the other cell frequencies for that county) are only broadcast within that county. For example, Onondaga's CC is not present in Madison County's cell/sites.
My apologies. Still a bit green, learning terminology. Yes I did mean countywide. Not systemwide.
No problem. Just wanted to make sure all understood.
I think it is worth a try based on your location. I don't know if your scanner has a signal analysis mode that gives a quality indication. If it does, you need to go for quality vs signal strength. For starters, just point the antenna in the direction of the tower and see what happens. The result may not be perfect but it may help.
It does, my current reception with the existing antenna shows the following:
Sy: 2AE R001 S001
96% N--- W: BEE00
Obviously 2AE is the System ID, and BEE00 is the WACN.
I would assume the 96% would be the quality of my signal, or my signal strength, but I am noticing the "N" is blank. All other data is received when I do the TSYS Analyze function. But that remains blank.
96% is the quality so there is a good chance you can improve it with a directional or relocated antenna. I found when I had a TRX-1 that anything below 90 was useless and, once it was above about 95, it worked most of the time but with annoying dropouts.
tvengr
Well Known Member
Try turning off the attenuator. I would also turn off digital AGC. The AGC action can increase garbled audio problems receiving simulcast systems. Set Multi Site Mode to OFF (not STAT). There is no need to look for other sites. You only need the control channel and alternate frequencies. #1 thru #11 can be deleted. If you lose control channel lock, the scanner does not have to waste time searching through all of the voice frequencies to find the control channel again.
Is there a reason Audio Boost is turned on? That should be used only if audio is low. If not, audio can be overloaded and distorted if turned on. If you are scanning other counties in the CNYICC system, set up each one as a separate system with Multi Site Mode set to OFF.
| 460.3625a | 460.425a | 460.4375a | 460.500c | |
Is there a reason Audio Boost is turned on? That should be used only if audio is low. If not, audio can be overloaded and distorted if turned on. If you are scanning other counties in the CNYICC system, set up each one as a separate system with Multi Site Mode set to OFF.
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Try going back to a antenna on the scanner. Maybe you have a bad cable. I can normally pick up that area fine on a rubber duck in the truck. If your in cicero you should get it fine with the antenna on the scanner.
Hi.. With your Whistler WS1065, I'd try and disconnect your outdoor antenna to the scanner and reconnect the antenna that came with it. Then, try these steps.
1) With your scanner set to the signal strength indicator, try moving the antenna around and even try decreasing the length of the telescopic antenna. Keep playing with the antenna till you get a SOLID 99% and it stays at 99% without fluctuating. Sometimes, I've seen these scanners needing the antenna going down to the smallest length you can get it to, and working solid at 99%. However, then analog preforms more poorly.
2) Try and keep the scanner higher up (on a top shelf etc.) close to a window preferably towards the direction of the tower. Keep away from other electronics. You might find that it works best where you might not necessarily want the scanner, but you might have to suck it up lol.
If you have more than 1 scanner, I'd keep 1 scanner specific to UHF P25 Trunked ONLY (using the steps above) and keep a 2nd scanner hooked to your outdoor antenna with off-network/talkaround and all your other analog channels you like to monitor.
Let us know how you make out! Good luck!!
I turned this off, it made no difference.
You would think so, ha. When using the antenna that came with the radio, my signal level is somewhere around 85%, sometimes lower. With my rooftop antenna it sits between 97% and 99%. Which I don't get.
Out of pure curiosity, I changed my control channels to the ones for Oswego County (as the closest tower for that is about 12 miles, on County Route 17 in Constantia), and with the squelch all the way down I can receive the control channels pretty cleanly, but nothing else.
I only have one unit in my office that does the P25, which is situated directly in front of a window. The window faces the opposite direction of the tower. I am going to try getting a Yagi antenna and facing it directly towards the Cicero tower. Only reason I've not done it yet is because I don't want to spend almost $100 on something that may not solve the issue.
Am I correct in assuming this radio can properly handle the CNYICC? All the documentation I can find says it should be compatible. I'm assuming if it wasn't I'd either be hearing garbled transmissions, or nothing at all.
It can not properly handle P25 LSM simulcast in any location where there are signals present from multiple towers. If you are in a location very close to a tower, and the radio shows 99% signal quality, it will work perfectly. If the quality is less than 99%, reception will be intermittent. If quality is below 90, it will be basically useless.
The Yagi may help but reception still may not be perfect and may vary with weather and other factors. I sold my similar TRX-1 to a person who was able to get good reception at times after many trials with finding a critical spot and type of antenna but reception varies with conditions like presence or absence of leaves on the trees and snow on the ground which affect reflections and strength of signals from multiple towers.
While vendor documentation says it can handle Phase I and II P25 signals, it has been extensively documented on here that this and similar scanners give erratic performance with simulcast systems.
KA1RBI
Member
There is another condition that needs to be added - the system must NOT be operating under conditions described in US patent 6,061,574. (Dick, since you are in a Harris area you may not have encountered this). That patent is among the "LSM secret sauce" which only applies to /\/\ systems, not Harris. I've confirmed by direct observation that it's present on a local /\/\ LSM system, and assume it's present on most all LSM systems.
No. There is no whistler scanner that properly demodulates the modulation format used in CNYICC. At one time there was supposed to be such a whistler scanner (the TRX-100) but its development was scrapped.
This is due to a long-standing loophole in the specs that allows for things to be technically, while not actually, "compatible".
So you're saying you're receiving this system error-free?
It's worth mentioning (again) that although all this talk of Yagi antennas and directions, weather factors and all the rest would lead you to believe the problem is in the RF front end circuitry of the scanner, nothing could be further from the truth. The root of the problem lies in the demodulator stage...
73
Max
For whatever it's worth, Motorola is now allowing other manufacturers to use LSM. See the Tait/L3Harris TB9400 base station, as an example.
TB9400 Base Station/Repeater | Tait Communications
TB9400 base station is the cornerstone of a Tait P25 Phase 2-upgradable system. Access the white paper or download the specification documents for more information here.
That being said, it's doubtful that existing non-ASTRO 25 systems are using LSM, unless they are brand new and have specifically chosen to use that modulation vs the usual H-DQPSK that you often see with Harris simulcasts.
That is indeed the root of the problem with all scanners that are analog devices not designed to properly demodulate complex digital signals. They can, under ideal conditions, get imperfect demodulation sufficient for trunk tracking and audio recovery for the non-critical scanner user. But, this fails with any disturbance in the received signal. So, directional antennas and finding a "sweet spot" location can mitigate, but never totally eliminate, the problem.
The Harris WCQPSK/H-DQPSK modulation actually seems to cause even more problems for scanners than Motorola LSM since the scanner can not properly demodulate either signal. I also found that OP25, at least in the early implementations I tried, had issues with the local Harris system as clearly seen in the scope patterns. When I tried my TRX-1 in the CNYICC area, it did better (but still marginal) than it ever did with the Harris Monroe/Ontario system.
The bottom line is that, to receive P25 simulcast systems reliably, the radio device must have proper demodulator circuitry or a SDR device with proper demodulation software. The Motorola and Harris digital signal modulation schemes that cause problems for scanners are intended to, and actually do, increase reliability and overcome simulcast issues in properly designed radios.
For whatever it's worth, Motorola is now allowing other manufacturers to use LSM. See the Tait/L3Harris TB9400 base station, as an example.
TB9400 Base Station/Repeater | Tait Communications
TB9400 base station is the cornerstone of a Tait P25 Phase 2-upgradable system. Access the white paper or download the specification documents for more information here.www.taitradio.com
That being said, it's doubtful that existing non-ASTRO 25 systems are using LSM, unless they are brand new and have specifically chosen to use that modulation vs the usual H-DQPSK that you often see with Harris simulcasts.
You'll have to excuse the stupidity of this question as I am new to the whole digital scanner game. Does this mean I would be better off getting rid of these radios for something like a SDS200? Or would a Yagi be my next logical step? Again you'll have to excuse my questions. I'm maybe about 6 months into this and there is still a lot I don't understand yet, or haven't grasped the concept of.
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