Orange County Fire encryption

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RadioDaze

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If anyone thinks that putting a pillow over my face and screaming all the worst obscenities I can think of will make me feel any better about all of this, I'm willing to try it.

I predict that around mid-year I'll be coming down with a case of TMS (Too Many Scanners).
 

kmh603

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Why Dose the Fire department need Encrypted Radios? Is it for there Fire SWAT Team that will do the job of the Police SWAT team. I can't understand why anyone wants to encrypt the fire department what's so secretive that the fire department to talk about. "Engine 21 captain 2 engine 21 set out of second lead out" that needs encryption obviously

The Fire Services needs it because there are arsonist who use radio scanners to monitor Fire Depts. and then set fires. This happened in San Jose after the arsonist set over 30 fires. Encryption keeps firefighters and the public safer from arsonists.
 

marcotor

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The Fire Services needs it because there are arsonist who use radio scanners to monitor Fire Depts. and then set fires. This happened in San Jose after the arsonist set over 30 fires. Encryption keeps firefighters and the public safer from arsonists.

Yes, because in 20 years of encryption of OC Law, all crime was eliminated :roll:
 

Markb

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The fire department "needs" it.
ROTFLMAO!

I would love to see some actual data that shows how encryption makes firefighters (and police officers, for that matter)safer.

Digital radio use, in hazardous situations particularly, by the Fire Service is still a bad idea.

The policy makers don't adequately vet digital trunking and the potential safety hazards that exist. "Works fine for the cops, why not us?"




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PaulNDaOC

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Nobody *has* to go P25, but in order to receive grant money for communication systems, one must comply with grant requirements. I suspect that desire to get grant-funded radios is more of a driver towards P25 and encryption than the front line users, chiefs or counties wanting to operating in secret.

I strongly agree that grant money is one of the prime motivators in the move to an encrypted or P25 system in the fire service. Homeland Security concerns are one of the justifications in getting a federal grant approved. Getting the feds to pay for new radios is a great way to go when general funds are tapped.
 

Eng74

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So I guess Anaheim and all the others who are not covered by OCFA will be going encrypted also?
 

Markb

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Yes. The whole she-bang.

The only bright side is they all need to stay on VHF for wildland incidents and the State wouldn't let them encrypt that in a million years!

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Sac916

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Curious. With a few Twitter channels out there "broadcasting" OC radio traffic....
How is that happening? Media gets a pass? Government employees off duty at home?
 

Markb

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Because they aren't encrypted yet. We're talking a year or 2 out, most likely.

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SCPD

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Curious. With a few Twitter channels out there "broadcasting" OC radio traffic....
How is that happening? Media gets a pass? Government employees off duty at home?

Not pertaining to your exact area but in way most likley media will get a subscriber radio they lease, rare occasions given one on loan with a dispatch only for pd and FD talkgroups. Radio locked. What the trend is with media but most of the time they will lease and sign disclosures along with the radio cannot leave the news ststion, any information heard before a story is aired must be approved by the agencies press information officer. Notice at least I have not any media play encrypted traffic from a leased radio. It's in the legal agreement for most others wouldn't try it fearing the radio will be pulled and killed in a second. In fact this has happened before where media leased radios were inhibited or killed temporarily, revoking at will and then unkilling them later for various reasons.

As for government employees, public works, fire, admin police, techs, etc well of course. Most have a signed radios, specially in public safety and can be called at moments notice to gear up off duty. Some public works have on calls, etc you get the idea. Some have policies you hang the radio up end of day or shift and it stays in the shop or field office.

As for techs well persons trusted to handle and maintain a system will no doubt have a work truck, van or suv with radios and portables at home monitoring a system which in some cases can be looked into if a problem occurs can be solved depending on if it's minor from remote access on a issued laptop tied into the cities or counties network. Many monitor on call while off duty listening for problems.

It may seem unfair but reality is these persons in various departments are relied upon by the public and the workers to public safety rely on system managers, techs to keep a system running and have problems troubleshooted as fast as possible to continue service to the user's and publics safety.

I have no doubt similiar will and does occur in orange county.

Most likely the agency has a stream they provide but those setups do get turned off if need be. As for a user I guess they do not like working for that employer once it is discovered on a secure system being leaked.
 

allend

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Keep in mind that this is not going to go over lightly at this point with the media and OCFA. There are already a group that is going to fight tooth and nail to keep OCFA from encrypting. At this point this department needs to be put on notice from encrypting the whole countywide system at this point.

There is no absolute reason why fire departments need to encrypt any of their traffic. It makes no sense. These chiefs and board of supervisors and firefighters union think they know it all and get sold on drinking the Kool Aid.

I bet if these government officials joined Jim Jones in Jonestown back in the 1970's they would of been brain washed and would of drank the Kool Aid too.

I am not saying that these government turds are stupid or dumb, they are just not educated when it comes to radios and communications and technology and the impact it will cause by encrypting traffice for The Fire Service.

Keep in mind that there are all sorts of volunteer programs that volunteers put thousands of hours per year in providing RACES and CERT programs and also OCFA has "Paid Call Firefighters" or Reserve paid crews that support the department. I guarantee that mostly all of these reserves have scanners to monitor OCFA and what is going on with calls within the county so they can be ready to go.

These turd ball decision makers have no idea what impact this is going to play within the county of orange by flipping the switch for no obvious reason. I guarantee this subject is no going away anytime soon for this OCFA fire crap department pulling this stunt.

Reserve Firefighters are provided a pager that alerts them of an emergency call for help. Reserves report to the station and respond on assigned fire apparatus.

Engine Companies

Level 1 Reserves assigned to Engine Companies receive training to respond to: Structure fires, wildland fires, traffic collisions, incident support, and medical aid emergencies.

Patrols

Level 2 Reserves assigned to Patrols receive training to respond to: Wildland fires, traffic collisions, incident support, and medical aid emergencies.

Stations 18 and 41

Reserve Firecrew members assigned to Stations 18 and 41 receive training in wildland firefighting and special equipment operation.

Stations

Level 1 & 2 Stations may also operate water tenders, and Level 2 Stations may also operate air utility units.
 

allend

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Back in 2009 there is a 10 year plan for "The Strategic Financial Plan" with moving forward with the upgrade of the CCCS Trunked System and bullet point # 8 is as followed.

http://bos.ocgov.com/finance/SFP2009/PDF/10_9.PDF


Remember "THE COUNTY TAX PAYERS AND RESIDENTS" are Stakeholders


8. Identify community awareness (stakeholders).
All public safety and general government users of the 800 MHz System as well as
the residents and visitors of Orange County.
 

jim202

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The Fire Services needs it because there are arsonist who use radio scanners to monitor Fire Depts. and then set fires. This happened in San Jose after the arsonist set over 30 fires. Encryption keeps firefighters and the public safer from arsonists.


You people that are supporting encryption for the fire service really need to do some homework. if you spend some time looking into the fire service radio systems, I think you will find a strong resistance to not go digital for a number of reasons. If there is strong push back to keep from going digital, how can you even think about adding encryption to the mix.

Some simple background on all this. Spend some time looking through the NFPA guidelines. You might just get an education. Bottom line is that there is no indication when you get out to the end of your coverage rope with digital. At least with analog operation, you can hear the signal start to break up and you know your at the far reaches of your radio coverage. With digital operation, when you get to the end of the coverage rope, it just suddenly stops working with no warning.

As for encryption, I have no problem with a channel being encrypted for a reason. But to encrypt everything, including the dispatch, that's going way beyond any reason to use it. Even in the law enforcement activity, there is no need to encrypt everything. the departments that have done this are being sold a line of crap by the radio vendor just looking to fatten their bank account.

Where am I coming from with this position? I have some 45 plus years with the fire service. Have run my own radio service hop for many years working on mostly public service systems. I currently work for a radio consulting firm that deals with public safety radio systems. Have been in more dispatch centers around the country than most people on here have ever dreamed of. I think that I have a very solid understanding what's going on and why. Maybe you boys should start asking questions at the upper management levels of the departments around you and get the true picture.

My money is on the Motorola sales teams pushing the hardest for encryption. Harris is not that far behind them. You would be surprised just how influential several expensive meals with the public safety upper management people have on how they place the next radio order or upgrade to any of the radio equipment goes with the sales force steering the discussion.
 

PaulNDaOC

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Washington DC Fire had a huge 800 encryption failure in their subway where people died.

Radio encryption blamed for failure in deadly D.C. tunnel incident - Security and Safety - Metro Magazine

Orange County can expect the same during a wildfire in hilly terrain where digital dies, but enough of an analog signal can get through to be understood by a well-trained dispatcher's ear.

I wouldn't expect the media to put up much of a fight, as they currently are able to have no-transmit radios setup for them for their news gathering purposes.
 

allend

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You people that are supporting encryption for the fire service really need to do some homework. if you spend some time looking into the fire service radio systems, I think you will find a strong resistance to not go digital for a number of reasons. If there is strong push back to keep from going digital, how can you even think about adding encryption to the mix.

Some simple background on all this. Spend some time looking through the NFPA guidelines. You might just get an education. Bottom line is that there is no indication when you get out to the end of your coverage rope with digital. At least with analog operation, you can hear the signal start to break up and you know your at the far reaches of your radio coverage. With digital operation, when you get to the end of the coverage rope, it just suddenly stops working with no warning.

As for encryption, I have no problem with a channel being encrypted for a reason. But to encrypt everything, including the dispatch, that's going way beyond any reason to use it. Even in the law enforcement activity, there is no need to encrypt everything. the departments that have done this are being sold a line of crap by the radio vendor just looking to fatten their bank account.

Where am I coming from with this position? I have some 45 plus years with the fire service. Have run my own radio service hop for many years working on mostly public service systems. I currently work for a radio consulting firm that deals with public safety radio systems. Have been in more dispatch centers around the country than most people on here have ever dreamed of. I think that I have a very solid understanding what's going on and why. Maybe you boys should start asking questions at the upper management levels of the departments around you and get the true picture.

My money is on the Motorola sales teams pushing the hardest for encryption. Harris is not that far behind them. You would be surprised just how influential several expensive meals with the public safety upper management people have on how they place the next radio order or upgrade to any of the radio equipment goes with the sales force steering the discussion.

Jim you are absolutely right with your experience in public safety with owning your own radio business and consulting. I know of an government contracting agency that uses AES-256 bit encryption on their own repeaters and when they get on the fringe they talk analog in the clear because the P25 digital and encryption cannot hit the fringe areas.

Analog and Digital radios are pretty much the same concept as the old analog and now digital TV broadcasting. In Analog you can still see and hear the video and audio with the fuzzy lines and the snowy picture and its still works.

Digital works way different. Digital is either all or none. You either hear the communication or you don't. Then you add another layer of P25 digital and then you add encryption and its a receipe for disaster in regards to the fire service.

Fire Departments go into smoke filled concrete buildings. They go into basements and parking structures with heavy concrete. Then these agencies insert these Bi Directional Amps which causes another layer for the comms to fight their way out of a building. Also, attics of homes and they fight peaks and valleys of fires in very poor terrain in forest areas where radios in P25 trunked 700/800 mhz mode just isn't perfect and never will be.

If the fire departments want some encryption then so be it. But you don't encryption Dispatch and daily tactical talkgroups. You give every division 1 encrypted talkgroup for use when sensitive information needs to be relayed on a minimal basis. Just give them an extra tool in their tool box for them to do their job.

Also, OCFA is wanting to encrypt their hospital comms and the reason was said for HIPPA rules. Not one time ever has any firefighter or paramedic transmitted any private patient info over the airwaves. All pertinent information and private patient information is all done over an computer tablet that is connected via cellular thru an secure broadband connection. So this is all horse crap coming from a department that is not educated.

ITS all Kool Aid drinking at this point. The facts are the facts and these government agencies need a good understanding from radio consultants that have worked in the business for years and years, not some sales driven young punk from Motorola that is trying to make his boss happy for his yearly bonus.
 

Markb

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As Is mentioned a few posts back. I am sure they will continue to use VHF for wildland incidents. It took years, but the Freeway Fire finally got them to interoperate with the rest of California.

The bigger worry, IMO is structure fires and other IDLH situations. There are a lot of documented incidents where digital comms failed and contributed to fatalities of civilians and Firefighters in particular.


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scottyhetzel

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As Is mentioned a few posts back. I am sure they will continue to use VHF for wildland incidents. It took years, but the Freeway Fire finally got them to interoperate with the rest of California.

The bigger worry, IMO is structure fires and other IDLH situations. There are a lot of documented incidents where digital comms failed and contributed to fatalities of civilians and Firefighters in particular.


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What does IDLH mean please....
 
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