Kenwood offers some radios that will do DMR, and P25 (I&II) in one radio.
https://comms.kenwood.com/en/products/model.php?model=NX-5300
However I do not think that Kenwood DMR radios will work on a Motorola Connect Plus system.
Orange County NY 911
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Kenwood offers some radios that will do DMR, and P25 (I&II) in one radio.
https://comms.kenwood.com/en/products/model.php?model=NX-5300
However I do not think that Kenwood DMR radios will work on a Motorola Connect Plus system.
Comspec333
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There are no "swaths" of "dead zones" on the coverage predictions. There are some areas of the County that remain unpainted, but they are generally small unpopulated areas. It also does not mean there is no signal there, it just means the signal in those areas do not meet the minimal levels set in the RFP (95% coverage @ 3.4 DAQ).
The County held two meetings between the last week of April and May 15th to provide updates and discuss ordering subscriber units. The County also provided information to the Fire Districts Assoc. meeting in April. Finally, there has been an update sent with the last two Fire Coordinator newsletters which are published quarterly.
Mbk127k,
I agree with the County Coordinator advising the fire departments to not purchase multi-band radios. A FF operating on the scene of an incident, should be using a portable radio on an analog non-repeated frequency.The NFPA guidelines on radio communications, state that fire ground communications should NOT be conducted in digital mode, especially for interior fire operations. It further states that a repeater should NOT be used and all communications should be conducted on direct (talk around). The Orange County16 Channel UHF Radio Plan follows these guidelines. As far I know, there is no plan to change the 16 channel radio plan.
Following the radio plan, the average Firefighter, on a scene, would have no need to access and communicate on the digital 700/800 radio system. The only people on scene that would need to use the 700/800 system, would be the Chiefs, County Coordinators, Incident Commanders etc, because they would be talking to the dispatchers and incoming units. Basically, similar to how Chiefs use the County low band radio system right now.
Since, multi-band portable radios are very expensive (like $5000+), it would not make sense financially, for the FDs go go out and purchase or lease a bunch of these types of radios. A basic Motorola or Kenwood UHF 4-5 watt portable radio is all that is really needed for fire ground operations. These radios can be purchase for a fraction of what a multi-band portable radio would cost.
In addition, when it comes to the Chiefs, Coordinators etc, trying to use 1 multi-band portable or mobile radio to monitor fire ground traffic and the 700/800 digital system at the same time, is not going to work out well, due to the limitations that Signal-Zero & GTR8000 outlined earlier. These limitations could cause an important or urgent message from the dispatcher or a MAYDAY from a firefighter to be missed. The best idea, would be for the Chiefs etc, to use 2 radios, 1 radio to monitor the 700/800 system and 1 radio to monitor the fire ground.
There is a huge difference between coverage with a 10dB directional antennas on the roof and what is needed for routine coverage.
Orange already has simulcast subsites planned which will cover that same area just fine. Jackie Jones happens to be the only subsite on the Rockland system that SP Middletown can "see", so there's no other choice at the moment.
Also realize that the two systems will be linked via ISSI 8000, which allows for talkgroup roaming across both systems. In simple terms, this means that as far as the end users are concerned, both systems will appear as one big system, with the radios automatically deciding what the strongest simulcast cell is at any given time.
Examples:
- A Tuxedo FD unit responding mutual aid to Sloatsburg would start out on the Orange South simulcast, let's say on a so-called "Orange Fire 1" talkgroup. Eventually they get far enough south to where their radio determines that the RSSI from the St. Mary's subsite of the Rockland system is now stronger than the signal from any of the Orange South subsites, so the radio switches over to the Rockland system. Because they haven't changed channels, and are still on the "Orange Fire 1" talkgroup, that talkgroup now becomes active on the Rockland system.
- 2F45 is requested to report to SP Middletown. His primary talkgroup, of course, is 2251 SP Haverstraw on the Rockland system. As he heads north and coverage from the Rockland system gets spotty, his radio will affiliate with the Orange South simulcast, bringing talkgroup 2251 with him. Eventually he gets near Goshen, where he now affiliates with the Orange North simulcast cell, still dragging talkgroup 2251 along with him. So the entire time he is in contact with Rockland 911, seamlessly. The same would be true for a State Park Police unit operating in either county.
The net effect being that the coverage area of talkgroups on either system is equal to the overall coverage area of both systems combined. In other words, both systems can "share" each others infrastructure.
Crude examples, but something that is part of the overall design of the system which some might not be aware of. There are many details to be worked out between the two counties to ensure that the link works as intended, and to determine which resources will be allowed to roam and at what priority, in order to ensure maximum availability of RF resources on both systems.
GTR8000,
More great information. It is great how the 2 systems are going to be tied together. That makes a lot of sense, especially for the PD units from Woodbury & Tuxedo that could end up going into Rockland County. I think with the coverage of the 2 systems together that there should not really be any dead spots that will be cause any issues.
More great information. It is great how the 2 systems are going to be tied together. That makes a lot of sense, especially for the PD units from Woodbury & Tuxedo that could end up going into Rockland County. I think with the coverage of the 2 systems together that there should not really be any dead spots that will be cause any issues.
The Park PD will be the biggest beneficiary of it right off the bat, as they now operate primarily on the Rockland system with a patch to their VHF repeater. When the units leave the coverage of the system and have to switch to VHF, they sound like crap coming over 700. Less than ideal, but it is what it is for the time being.
PJH
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To Trauma et al
There is nothing wrong with purchasing multiband radios. The APX7x series is already on the chopping block his year with the 8xxx series radios in production.
The cost of the 7x series with the P25 trunking is around 3k with the second band enabled. I can dig up an exact figure as I had to buy several last fall.
There is no more of a delay of switching between trunked systems and conventional systems for practical operation. We do it all the time as operations are on a trunked system with fire ground conventional. Whoever is spreading the notion that it takes a month of sundays to switch needs to be slapped.
Yes it could take a few seconds (5 or less) but that 5 seconds isn't he end of the world.
The Harris Unity (portable) is also out the door and has been replaced by XP200. It's a nice little radio from what I am told.
The mobile is also nice as it supports lowband rx, and tx with the optional amp. You can intergrate various trunked and conventional systems in each zone.
We use Thales, Motorola and Harris multiband radios and all work well. I'm leaning towards Harris to replace our older radios due to cost and performance but I do love the APX XE's. But I will tell you that Harris has an excellent product and generally a little cheaper.
There is nothing wrong with purchasing multiband radios. The APX7x series is already on the chopping block his year with the 8xxx series radios in production.
The cost of the 7x series with the P25 trunking is around 3k with the second band enabled. I can dig up an exact figure as I had to buy several last fall.
There is no more of a delay of switching between trunked systems and conventional systems for practical operation. We do it all the time as operations are on a trunked system with fire ground conventional. Whoever is spreading the notion that it takes a month of sundays to switch needs to be slapped.
Yes it could take a few seconds (5 or less) but that 5 seconds isn't he end of the world.
The Harris Unity (portable) is also out the door and has been replaced by XP200. It's a nice little radio from what I am told.
The mobile is also nice as it supports lowband rx, and tx with the optional amp. You can intergrate various trunked and conventional systems in each zone.
We use Thales, Motorola and Harris multiband radios and all work well. I'm leaning towards Harris to replace our older radios due to cost and performance but I do love the APX XE's. But I will tell you that Harris has an excellent product and generally a little cheaper.
APX8000
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PJH...I'd like to slap the guy that misses my Mayday on the analog simplex foreground on UHF because his multi-band tacticool APX 7 or 8000 is multi-system scanning checking for a channel grant on a 7/800 trunked system....seconds count when seconds count and 5 seconds could be the end of the world if it means missing a call for help.
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APX8000
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And as GTR8000 put it:
"And once again, remember that there is no priority available with this type of scan, so whatever active talkgroup or analog frequency the radio lands on, that's what you're going to listen to until the transmission ends and it resumes scanning...regardless of what else is going on."
So now even a 1 second channel switch can turn into how long someone is speaking on a trunked talkgroup. Meanwhile the IC can't talk to his guy on the analog fireground.
TWO radios on dedicated channels. How hard is this concept !??!?
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"And once again, remember that there is no priority available with this type of scan, so whatever active talkgroup or analog frequency the radio lands on, that's what you're going to listen to until the transmission ends and it resumes scanning...regardless of what else is going on."
So now even a 1 second channel switch can turn into how long someone is speaking on a trunked talkgroup. Meanwhile the IC can't talk to his guy on the analog fireground.
TWO radios on dedicated channels. How hard is this concept !??!?
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APX8000
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PJH
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If your on the fireground, you shouldn't be scanning. You can still have the delay with conventional scan depending on the setup.
The fact of the matter is that everything is still another overly complicated solution to an minor problem.
We routinely run in three states with four trunked systems. We can talk to each other and have established mutual aid talkgroups on each.
In the end, we find the NIFOG stuff works well.
No one said every hose dragger needs a P25 radio when hose boys and use a $300 analog radio on the fireground and talk to the pump operator.
In my command vehicle we have two radio. One that works on all the P25 systems and one for the fireground.
The issue isn't the technology, it's those who forgot how to keep things simple.
Those who feel as though they need to carry four different radios and *create* a need - needs to stop checking out all the ads in the trade mags.
FWIW, our APX radios and even the Harris radios work very well in scan. It doesn't look for "channel grants" as you imply. It looks for talkgroup activity. It doesn't even need to affiliate to rx the TRS if it's sitting in anconventional channel.
The old firmware ASTRO25 radios on the other hand, did have poor multisystem scanning.
The fact of the matter is that everything is still another overly complicated solution to an minor problem.
We routinely run in three states with four trunked systems. We can talk to each other and have established mutual aid talkgroups on each.
In the end, we find the NIFOG stuff works well.
No one said every hose dragger needs a P25 radio when hose boys and use a $300 analog radio on the fireground and talk to the pump operator.
In my command vehicle we have two radio. One that works on all the P25 systems and one for the fireground.
The issue isn't the technology, it's those who forgot how to keep things simple.
Those who feel as though they need to carry four different radios and *create* a need - needs to stop checking out all the ads in the trade mags.
FWIW, our APX radios and even the Harris radios work very well in scan. It doesn't look for "channel grants" as you imply. It looks for talkgroup activity. It doesn't even need to affiliate to rx the TRS if it's sitting in anconventional channel.
The old firmware ASTRO25 radios on the other hand, did have poor multisystem scanning.
PJH
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I'll also throw this out here. But the way most NY and NE departments and counties are funded...
I do not support trunking or digital on ththe fireground.
However, in a properly *funded*'and *designed* P25 radio system, it can work. There are many large departments and counties in which digital conventional and digital trunked systems are used daily and encounters the same issues as analog conventional and trunked.
If you are in a basement or sub basement, you are already at a disadvantage from th chief hearing you while he sits in his buggy.
There are vehicle based solutions to help extend out or support fireground communications.
One city I am familiar with has a bunch of marble buildings. They operate P25/trunked with the PD. Each firetruck had an onboard amp/repeater that has antennas pointed to the side which "brings out" and "tunnels in" the TRS.
Not every solution is 100%, but training is.
Don't let the salesman bedazzle you.
But bedazzle your brothers wi H realistic training and find what works and go that route.
I always see chiefs who want the $5000 spiffy looking radio, but has no clue on how to use it, and then I see people like BG who has an old HT1000 and runs multiple alarm fires wiTh it.
I do not support trunking or digital on ththe fireground.
However, in a properly *funded*'and *designed* P25 radio system, it can work. There are many large departments and counties in which digital conventional and digital trunked systems are used daily and encounters the same issues as analog conventional and trunked.
If you are in a basement or sub basement, you are already at a disadvantage from th chief hearing you while he sits in his buggy.
There are vehicle based solutions to help extend out or support fireground communications.
One city I am familiar with has a bunch of marble buildings. They operate P25/trunked with the PD. Each firetruck had an onboard amp/repeater that has antennas pointed to the side which "brings out" and "tunnels in" the TRS.
Not every solution is 100%, but training is.
Don't let the salesman bedazzle you.
But bedazzle your brothers wi H realistic training and find what works and go that route.
I always see chiefs who want the $5000 spiffy looking radio, but has no clue on how to use it, and then I see people like BG who has an old HT1000 and runs multiple alarm fires wiTh it.
APX8000
Sarcastic Member
I guess you don't realize that before there can be any "talkgroup activity", there must be group voice grants and grant updates broadcast over the control channel (what I'm referring to as a "channel grant"). How else does the radio know which talkgroups are currently active, and which RF "channels" (i.e. slots in the case of TDMA) to tune to? Do you think the radio scans all the voice channels for activity?
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When I power up my APX at work, it takes a few seconds to connect, just like my cell phone, when I turn it on. The few second delay is enough to miss an important radio transmission.
Signal Zero, I know what radio equipment that you have and what networks you are on. How long do your radios take to connect?
The point that I was making is that, is that all fire ground communications should be analog simplex only and the people in charge of the incident should be using 2 radios, 1 to monitor dispatch/incoming units and 1 to monitor the fire ground.
Signal Zero, I know what radio equipment that you have and what networks you are on. How long do your radios take to connect?
The point that I was making is that, is that all fire ground communications should be analog simplex only and the people in charge of the incident should be using 2 radios, 1 to monitor dispatch/incoming units and 1 to monitor the fire ground.
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PJH
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You can't have your cake and eat it too.
These more advanced radios take a bit to power on. Gone are most radios that do not use advanced COu's and embedded software.
These are not MT1000's or sabers.
If you are worried about one second and missing a transmission on poweruo, then you are already behind the eight ball.
It takes about 7 seconds for thrbloaded 7500/O9 to come up. It checks the siren, urc and vrs for presence and configuration.
It takes the 7000 about 4'seconds with the same codeplug. The XTS5000 also takes about 4 seconds.
My ApX's with v16 FW will immediately unmute on an active conventional channel. Trunked takes about a 1/2 sec longer. This is also with a system tha runs sites on two bands.
These more advanced radios take a bit to power on. Gone are most radios that do not use advanced COu's and embedded software.
These are not MT1000's or sabers.
If you are worried about one second and missing a transmission on poweruo, then you are already behind the eight ball.
It takes about 7 seconds for thrbloaded 7500/O9 to come up. It checks the siren, urc and vrs for presence and configuration.
It takes the 7000 about 4'seconds with the same codeplug. The XTS5000 also takes about 4 seconds.
My ApX's with v16 FW will immediately unmute on an active conventional channel. Trunked takes about a 1/2 sec longer. This is also with a system tha runs sites on two bands.
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