Orange County NY 911

[radioman2001]

Quote"
I should have clarified...the Firegrounds are simplex.

Not all agencies use simplex for fire grounds, not saying it's the correct way. NFPA would LIKE all agencies to use simplex and analog BTW, but as of right now it's only a guide line. My agency in N.C. uses Viper for fire grounds and, I have heard of many other agencies that use their trunking systems for fire grounds.

FDNY uses what I consider a very good fire ground system. They have a number of fire grounds in their radios. All are C.S. receive, so if they get interference whether it's from another companies operation (as can happen in high rise operations) or electrical (which happens a lot too)they switch to another. At the same time the B.C. at the command post has the ability to repeat all the transmissions on the trunking system.

Now if we are continue to talk about Orange County and that they are going 700 mhz, there are plenty of low power simplex channels available, and the county could set up a system to relay it into the trunking system without having to install a ridiculous amount of receivers to monitor, which also BTW takes resources back at the dispatch center.

While I am not totally familiar with the current UHF system in Orange I see no difference whether you call it A,B.C or Battalion XX for a fire ground. If these are county owned channels then they can decide to assign which one to what agency. As far as agencies using their own local channels that's up to the Chief or a pre-planned system since he /she is responsible. I know that all of my surrounding D.C. fire agencies have EFFD's in house channels in their radios, as we have theirs. While we do try to stay with D.C.911 channels, when their is a large incident or multiple incidents in our battalion we switch over to our own.

 

[DaveNF2G]

"OTOH, having multiple countywide FG/TAC channels that can be assigned on a rotating basis by dispatch pretty much eliminates that problem altogether."

That works for simplex, not very efficient for repeater operation.

Works fine on the trunked systems in Albany and Saratoga counties.

 

[radioman2001]

Again not really recommended fire grounds they should be analog and simplex period. Anything else is just waiting for a lawsuit when something goes wrong, and it will. People forget already what happened with FDNY and their original digital radios and how it nearly killed multiple times in a month.

 

[trauma74]

The plan all along for Orange County has been to use UHF simplex channels on the fire ground. There is no plans to use the 700 band radio system for fire ground operations. The 16 UHF radio plan is explained below:


UHF Ops

Fireground A (Ch. 1) and Command A (Ch. 3) are the primary pair. Should another incident arise in the area of the first, the second incident can be assigned Fireground B (Ch. 16) and Command B (Ch. 15) to prevent interference.
City Fireground (Ch. 10) and City Command (Ch. 9) are the primary channels for use in Middletown, Newburgh, and Port Jervis and can be used as tertiary channels if a third incident arises nearby to where FG A/CMD A and FG B/CMD B are already in use at incidents in close proximity to each other.
Chs. 4 and 5 are locally determined. Generally speaking, Ch. 4 is used for a local fireground, and Ch. 5 is used for a local crossband link to Orange 911.
Chs. 11 through 14 are the UCALL40 and UTAC41 through UTAC43 frequencies

 

[sc800]

Orange already has simulcast subsites planned which will cover that same area just fine. Jackie Jones happens to be the only subsite on the Rockland system that SP Middletown can "see", so there's no other choice at the moment.

Also realize that the two systems will be linked via ISSI 8000, which allows for talkgroup roaming across both systems. In simple terms, this means that as far as the end users are concerned, both systems will appear as one big system, with the radios automatically deciding what the strongest simulcast cell is at any given time.

Examples:

• 2F45 is requested to report to SP Middletown. His primary talkgroup, of course, is 2251 SP Haverstraw on the Rockland system. As he heads north and coverage from the Rockland system gets spotty, his radio will affiliate with the Orange South simulcast, bringing talkgroup 2251 with him. Eventually he gets near Goshen, where he now affiliates with the Orange North simulcast cell, still dragging talkgroup 2251 along with him. So the entire time he is in contact with Rockland 911, seamlessly. The same would be true for a State Park Police unit operating in either county.

Is this really such a good idea? What happens if 2F45 gets off an Orange County exit and witnesses a man with a gun pointing it at traffic. He presses the PTT or the emergency button which will go to a dispatcher a county away who wouldn't be able to get immediate backup or he may need to fumble with his radio trying to change talkgroups

 

[APX8000]

New York State Park Police operate in both Counties but talk to their dispatch "Bear Mountain" on their own talkgroup. Heck, NYC DEP Police cover water reservoirs in several counties but talk to their own dispatch back in Westchester I believe on OneVoice.


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[APX8000]

Hit the button before I was done. My point is, I would want my unit to talk to me in dispatch and I can easily get on Countywide and get him all the help he needs while still maintaining comms with him.


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[GTR8000]

Is this really such a good idea? What happens if 2F45 gets off an Orange County exit and witnesses a man with a gun pointing it at traffic. He presses the PTT or the emergency button which will go to a dispatcher a county away who wouldn't be able to get immediate backup or he may need to fumble with his radio trying to change talkgroups

SP Middletown has full capability on that talkgroup, so the trooper could simply call them directly over the air instead of Rockland 911, without having to "fumble with his radio".

Of course SP Middletown would then in turn notify Orange 911 the same way Rockland would, so the call could go out over 911 Priority for that "immediate backup".

Your scenario is no different than if an SP unit from the Monroe barracks called something like that in over the SP VHF channel. Either way, someone has to notify Orange 911.

Or, here's a novel idea. The trooper could simply change channels as he's leaving Rockland, switching to Orange 911 Priority or whatever SP talkgroup the Orange system winds up having.

Unfortunately, you completely missed the point I was making, which is that ISSI 8000 will allow for seamless roaming between counties, and will essentially allow both systems to share each others infrastructure.

 

[Comspec333]

Is this really such a good idea? What happens if 2F45 gets off an Orange County exit and witnesses a man with a gun pointing it at traffic. He presses the PTT or the emergency button which will go to a dispatcher a county away who wouldn't be able to get immediate backup or he may need to fumble with his radio trying to change talkgroups

Would it be a better idea that 2F45 had no radio coverage and was not able to get in touch with anybody via radio when they need help?

 

[KC2zZe]

The plan all along for Orange County has been to use UHF simplex channels on the fire ground. There is no plans to use the 700 band radio system for fire ground operations. The 16 UHF radio plan is explained below:

UHF Ops

Fireground A (Ch. 1) and Command A (Ch. 3) are the primary pair. Should another incident arise in the area of the first, the second incident can be assigned Fireground B (Ch. 16) and Command B (Ch. 15) to prevent interference.
City Fireground (Ch. 10) and City Command (Ch. 9) are the primary channels for use in Middletown, Newburgh, and Port Jervis and can be used as tertiary channels if a third incident arises nearby to where FG A/CMD A and FG B/CMD B are already in use at incidents in close proximity to each other.
Chs. 4 and 5 are locally determined. Generally speaking, Ch. 4 is used for a local fireground, and Ch. 5 is used for a local crossband link to Orange 911.
Chs. 11 through 14 are the UCALL40 and UTAC41 through UTAC43 frequencies

and channels 2, 6, 7, and 8, along with their appropriate uses, are explained in Appendix B (pages 26 - 28) of the following document: http://www.orangecountygov.com/filestorage/1162/977/Orange_County_Radio_Field_Guide.pdf

 

[sc800]

Would it be a better idea that 2F45 had no radio coverage and was not able to get in touch with anybody via radio when they need help?

Actually my idea would be some sort of geofence linked to the AVL, where once a unit crosses county lines it would automatically affiliate with an appropriate talk group from that county

They are starting to do this in Orange County with the CAD where as a unit travels into each town, it will appear on that town dispatchers screen so they know all of the available resources in that town

 

[firetrux745]

Anyone know what the new tower at the fire training center is going to be used for? Looks to be about 130' with a shelter at the bottom. No trunk lines or antennas mounted yet.

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[APX8000]

The new 7/800 trunked system.


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[firetrux745]

Any ideas on why they chose that site? (Other than the fact that the land is county owned). Its in a valley and I can't see them getting good coverage off that site in particular. Are there other sites complete or under construction?

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[GTR8000]

According to the planning documents and licenses, the FTC site is shown as microwave-only, not RF. (The 911 Center is shown as an RF site for the trunked system.)

They show an 11 GHz hop between the 911 Center and the FTC, then a 6 GHz hop between the FTC and Mt Peter.

Take all of that with a grain of salt, as who knows what the county currently has planned vs when the original system design was submitted.

Word on the street is that they have thus far not obtained approval to install a trunked site at Arden, and may have to relocate that site 4 miles to the northeast to Bull Hill (West Point property).

Maybe Comspec333 will weigh in as to what their most current plans are.

 

[Comspec333]

It's 180'. The Fire Training Center will be the new 911 Backup Center (as the old timers say, it has made full circle). There is no trunked RF planned for that tower, just 6.1 meter equipment for back up.

The County will not be re-locating to Bull Hill in place of Arden.

 

[APX8000]

Was Arden approved or is their a different alternate site or is that site just going away?


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[firetrux745]

So basically the ftc backup site will have transmit and receive capability on lo, vhf, and uhf channels? Will they have the choice of choosing which towers they use , or will the backup site just be simulcast over all sites? Also, will the links to the other sites be microwave or wireline? ¿I believe they are all wireline now? Because as far as the ftc site is concerned, I don't believe it has line of sight to anything other than the 911 center and Arden. I could be wrong on that, but I worked on the Cell site at the psych center which is around the same height, doing sighting for microwave backhaul and that sight failed.


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[APX8000]

The current system is 900 MHz consisting of I believe 8 sites (Beacon, Arden, Graham, Goshen, Mt Peter, Schunnemunk, Heater Hill and Putnam). The new system will be an Alcatel Lucent 6 GHz system and should encompass all the new sites that are also being built out for the 7/800 trunked system.

I don't believe they are keeping low band on the air as a back up once the 7/800 trunked system is up and running. The trunked system is planned simulcast....however from their current licenses as well as stuff pending with Region 8, it looks like it will actually be two simulcast cells due to limitations as to where they can license frequencies at....a north/west cell and a south/east one. I'm sure the countywide talkgroups will be over both cells but local (like Woodbury PD dispatch) would remain on south/east. Also, so not to tie up resources on the other cell for no reason while still providing increased coverage from numerous simulcast towers within that cell.

Don't know if roaming between cells will be permitted on local channels. Same goes for the ISSI link into Rockland.

VHF will remain for Fire and EMS paging and UHF for fire ground.


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[APX8000]

FYI...there is line of sight from the new tower at the FTC to Mt Peter, which will be a 6 GHz hop as GTR8000 stated previously.

The current 900 MHz microwave network is 900 MHz as I previously posted. It's setup in a star configuration with Schunnemunk as the hub for all other sites. The main link is between Goshen and Schunnemunk, which then distributes out to the other five sites (Mt Peter, Arden, Putnam, Beacon and Graham) with Heater Hill being a spur off of Graham.

That system is quite weak as far as bandwidth and robustness, meaning it can only carry a handful of resources and is prone to single points of failure that tend to bring the whole network crashing down. This happened twice within the past two months, where antenna and link failures between Goshen and Schunnemunk caused multiple resources to go completely dark. In both cases, better monitoring and preventative maintenance by the County could've and should've prevented the failures.

The way the county currently operates is a mixture of those 900 MHz microwave links, as well as so-called "6.1 meter control stations" as ComSpec333 posted.

The primary resources carried on the 900 MHz microwave are low band Fire, Fire Paging, and EMS Paging. The paging channels are EVENTUALLY going to be simulcasted off all sites. This was suppossed to happen years ago. But as I stated, the current 900 is pretty weak. So, this probably won't happen until the new system is up and running. The micowave vendor was contracted in August 2015 and tentative schedule for the new microwave completion was 3rd quarter of 2016 accoridng to County documents. Still waiting......

911 Priority, MRD, and EMS Ops are accessed via a cabinet full of mobile radios at the 911 center, which function as poor man's control stations. They are not rated for continuous duty, and are hardly appropriate for a countywide 911 center which is the primary PSAP and dispatch point for countless agencies. Basically, the county accesses the multitude of VHF repeaters around the county the same way everyone else does, which is via the repeater input...not wireline or microwave link as they ought to be. Each of these mobiles is programmed with the appropriate frequencies and tones to access each of the repeaters. If you are in the vicinity of the 911 center with a receiver that decodes PL tones, you can listen to the county transmitting on each repeater input with the various PL tones. I used to love hearing the dispatcher on the EMS Response channel saying "loud and clear on all towers." No, not really, since you are only listening to the tower that the subscriber is transmitting to. The reason all the lights illuminate on the console is because the County is listening to the repeater OUTPUT from those control stations. That is poor training on the County to the dispatchers. Also, the dispatcher has to GUESS which tower the unit is transmitting on based upon what channel they normally use. So, if I'm Cornwall EMS I use Beacon, but if I go out to the west side of the town in areas of Salisbury Mills, Schunnemunk is better (but they will still answer on Beacon because they don't know that I manually switched sites unless I tell them).

It's an extremely crude operation that has little to no redundancy, as evidenced by several recent failures where the county was unable to transmit on certain resources due to stupid maintenance check issues to more serious issues like a generator falling through the floor of a site due to neglect. You know, things the county should be paying attention to, but for some unfathomable reason do not. The other problem with this configuration is the subscriber can never "step on" the base. If the County listened to the INPUT via microwave or wireline, they could still listen while transmitting on the output in the event the subscriber had to transmit an emergency. THAT is bad for the field. As you know probably by listening, the County likes to repeat and be long winded on the radio. If I can't interrupt them in an emergency, my radio aka my lifeline is useless.

In theory, the new 6 GHz/11 GHz microwave network should be much more robust, with some built in redundancy provided by the fact that all but two of the sites are connected in a bi-directional loop. If the link between any two sites is broken, the data simply flows in the reverse direction from another site to close the gap. Heater Hill and Sparrowbush are spur sites off of Graham, and are not within the main loop.

Apparently I'm long winded too....but had they listened a decade ago when concerns were brought to their attention instead of lining the pocket of a certain vendor things may have been different.