Pensylvania statewide system way over budget

[n4voxgill]

The Philadelphia Inquirer has an article that starts:

PITTSBURGH - A statewide radio transmission system meant to allow various rescue agencies to communicate with one another during an emergency will be more than $180 million over budget when it is completed in about three years, officials say.
The state has been working on the project for 10 years and has spent nearly $311 million on it, officials said, well more than the projected $179 million. When the project is completed, the total bill is expected to top $360 million, in part because of added expenses after the Sept. 11 attacks

and ends up with:
Part of the added costs of the radio system resulted from new demands it had to meet after the Sept. 11 attacks, increasing the price per square mile from $7,000 to $30,000, officials said.

But another reason for the delay is that the construction company hired to build the towers went bankrupt, halting all work for nine months.

Workers are nearly halfway done constructing the more than 1,110 towers needed for the system to be in full operation, but the state is still trying to get all the land it needs to complete the project.

Here is the whole story:
<http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/pa/montgomery/20070402_Pa__radio_system_way_over_budget.html>

So MACOM is not the only cause for the delay. It is hard to believe that state has not lived up its part of the contract by providing the towers.

 

[bezking]

If it's encrypted or digital, maybe they scan save some money by not making it encrypted or digital.

 

[FPO703]

Or, they can scrap the whole 'OpenSky' fiasco and go with something that is P-25 compliant. It doesn't necessarily need to be digital, just P-25 compliant.

Then again, the politicians in PA are a breed all of their own (not trying to bash anyone here. Just my feelings).

 

[n4voxgill]

you better find out what the cost to the state would be for cancelling the contract. maybe more than to finish it.

 

[N_Jay]

If it's encrypted or digital, maybe they scan save some money by not making it encrypted or digital.

Hu?????

Its already well on its way, please explain how non-digital saves money at this point?

 

[N_Jay]

Or, they can scrap the whole 'OpenSky' fiasco and go with something that is P-25 compliant. It doesn't necessarily need to be digital, just P-25 compliant.

Then again, the politicians in PA are a breed all of their own (not trying to bash anyone here. Just my feelings).

Hu?????

Please explain how something can be P25 compliant and not digital?

 

[n4voxgill]

I'm waiting to hear this answer also

 

[brey1234]

This Is What Pa Is Doing-not using Project 25

Since the Project 25 radios are more expensive, the end result is that state and local agencies may be spending more money to purchase equipment that may not be interoperable and may provide only minimal additional benefits, the GAO concluded. http://www.washingtontechnology.com/online/1_1/30383-1.html

 

[brey1234]

800 Mhz System Violated Zoning in Schuylkill Co?

This link requires a subscription so I am posting the entire article here:

http://www.tnonline.com/node/142486

A new telecommunications pole has sprung up in West Penn Township, courtesy of the commonwealth's office of public safety.

Township officials are examining whether the pole, which stands 145-feet high on property owned by the West Penn Archery Club, fulfills zoning regulations or if the township has any jurisdiction in the matter at all.

Franklin E. Moore, project coordinator for the governor's office of administration's office of public safety, radio services, told the West Penn Board of Supervisors Monday evening that the construction of the pole, located at 10 Archery Club road, was mandated by the commonwealth in order to allow state police to utilize the 800 megahertz radio band.

"It's an initiative through the governor for the federal Office of Homeland Security," he said. "It will be used by the state police, PennDOT and PEMA (Pa. Emergency Management Agency)."

John K. Nally, also of the governor's office of public safety, later explained that there are 10 such poles in Schuylkill County and that he had been searching since last year for the best spot in order to provide emergency telecommunications capability for the West Penn area.

"This is one of the deadest spots in the county," said Nally.

"There was no coverage here at all," added Cpl. Timon D. Moore of the state police bureau of technology services, OA-Radio project office.

Cpl. Moore said that 23 different agencies would be able to use the pole to communicate in the event of emergency situations.

"We need it for coverage if the weather gets bad," said Cpl. Moore. "We don't want another St. Valentine's Day massacre," a reference to the paralyzing winter storm of Feb. 14.

Franklin Moore stressed that the telecommunications technology on the pole will not be utilized by any private enterprises, such as cellular telephone companies.

Supervisor Timothy Houser questioned whether the pole fits in with the township's regulation regarding "fall zones" for telecommunications towers, which mandate that such towers must not be located near another structure that it might strike should it fall down.

"This is not a tower, it it a utility pole," said Franklin Moore.

Dave Gibson, who lives across from the archery club, questioned the actual height of the pole.

So far, the pole, which includes two segments of a 140-foot pole plus a base that rise to an actual height of 145 feet, has had the equipment pedestal and equipment installed, with the 800 MHz and ISM antennas mounted on top. An electrical meter base and service has been installed, with the underground conduit run to a PPL pole, although the power line from the pole to the meter has yet to be installed. Trees around the PPL pole have been removed.

Solicitor Paul J. Datte, Pottsville, said he will examine where the pole fits in with the township's zoning ordinance.

"Do state and federal laws on homeland security pre-empt local zoning laws?" asked Datte. "I will talk to state counsel about it. If they do pre-empt local regulations, that will be the end of it."

If the local zoning is not pre-empted in this case, Datte had a couple of suggestions as to how to proceed.

The pole could be classified as a telecommunications tower, and then it would need conditional use approval from the supervisors, said Datte. It could also be classified as a governmental structure.

"Most of the cases like this were decided prior to the Patriot Act," said Datte.

Franklin Moore said if zoning is needed, they would give up and ask for it.

"We're happy with the options they have given us," he said.

The matter could result in a public hearing prior to the supervisors' next meeting.

Nally hopes for a quick resolution. "We are only a few days from having it turned on," he said

 

[N_Jay]

This Is What Pa Is Doing-not using Project 25

Hu??

Since the Project 25 radios are more expensive, the end result is that state and local agencies may be spending more money to purchase equipment that may not be interoperable and may provide only minimal additional benefits, the GAO concluded. http://www.washingtontechnology.com/online/1_1/30383-1.html

The GAO's report was poorly researched and poorly written.

I would not pull quotes from it as "facts".

 

[zz0468]

Hu?????

Please explain how something can be P25 compliant and not digital?

In one project I had that was funded through federal grant money, the grant required "P25 compliant" radios. This project was to provide a multisite interoperability system that was to allow about 15 different agencies to communicate via their EXISTING radios. It was essentially a replacement system that had been place for 15 years.

The existing radios from the 15 (or so) agencies are operating on VHF or UHF, a few on 800, and all analog. In order to be compatible with the user's existing systems, this new system had to be analog. It took a few phone calls and a bit of research, but it was determined that for the purposes of the grant, "P25 compliant" meant radios that could be easily converted to either P25 digital, or narrow band analog modes without requiring replacement.

Granted, the definition is based purely on semantics, but for the purposes of many of the federal homeland security grants becoming available, "P25 compliant" merely means "the radio CAN operate P25 digital". It does not mean it has to. It would appear that the feds actually recognize that transitioning a region to P25 is not necessarily a clean and easy task. They will fund radio systems for interoperability, but the radios must be able to convert to P25 operation when the time comes. In the case of the system I'm referring to, conversion required an additional $5000 per base station in hardware/firmware to actually operate P25 digital modes. That was sufficient to satisfy the grant requirements for compliance!

As far as Opensky, or any other proprietary system, there is no requirement that an agency deploy P25, so if that's what works for them, more power to 'em. If they expect to get federal funding, however, that can limit their choices. M/A Com does offer radios that will operate in Opensky, P25, EDACS, and conventional, so just because it's Opensky does not mean it can't be "P25 compliant" on some level enough to satisfy a grant requirement.

 

[N_Jay]

Ain't the politics of grants great.

If you can't meet the intent of the words, just change the meaning!

 

[zz0468]

Ain't the politics of grants great.

If you can't meet the intent of the words, just change the meaning!

Yep. Better still when you get the fed's blessing!

 

[N_Jay]

Yep. Better still when you get the fed's blessing!

It's not that hard.

Up to this point there has always been exceptions if you show how the proposed system (not-p25) is better for the particular agency.

Next year it will (hopefully) get tougher.

 

[N4DES]

So MACOM is not the only cause for the delay. It is hard to believe that state has not lived up its part of the contract by providing the towers.

This was the same situation that caused the downfall of Motorola deploying the SmartZone system in Florida. DMS was responsible for ALL of the site development to include shelters, towers, generators, and all of the permitting. Motorola's responsibility was to deliver the equipment to the SOF provided shelter and to turn it on.

After a number of years SOF DMS was scaled back in funding and staff and was not able to deploy the rest of the sites, although it was Motorola who got the black eye in the press and in Tallahassee for not completing the system.

If Motorola was tasked with doing a turn-key from the get go it probably would have never went M/A Com like it did.

 

[ocguard]

If they'd have chosen a band more consistent with the coverage needs of a state like PA (VHF-Hi), they probably wouldn't have needed 1,100 tower sites! Network a VHF-Hi system to a handful of 800mhz systems (to cover the dense metro areas where 800mhz makes sense) and they'd have had a decent little set-up!

 

[N_Jay]

If they'd have chosen a band more consistent with the coverage needs of a state like PA (VHF-Hi), they probably wouldn't have needed 1,100 tower sites! Network a VHF-Hi system to a handful of 800mhz systems (to cover the dense metro areas where 800mhz makes sense) and they'd have had a decent little set-up!

If they could get enough VHF channels, and if they can create enough acceptable repeater pairs, and if after all that work, they can sort them out so they don't interfere at the sites, then "maybe"!

 

[Mattsenft]

Considering that they only are using between two to four channel pairs per site they could have had more than enough utilizing the VHF high frequencies already licensed to PSP, DCNR, PA Turnpike Commision and other state agencys.

 

[N_Jay]

Considering that they only are using between two to four channel pairs per site they could have had more than enough utilizing the VHF high frequencies already licensed to PSP, DCNR, PA Turnpike Commision and other state agencys.

Except VHF goes further so it interferes further, and there are no structured repeater pairs and there is no open-sky at VHF so they would need more pairs, and a few other little details.

 

[brey1234]

What Happened

"they can scrap the whole 'OpenSky' fiasco and go with something that is P-25 compliant. It doesn't necessarily need to be digital, just P-25 compliant.

Then again, the politicians in PA are a breed all of their own (not trying to bash anyone here. Just my feelings)."
========================

Whats interesting is that a ham radio operator was the project manager in the early 90's. He came over to work for the state from Motorola. He's the one that predicted the 1991 date that the project would be compleated. After several years of delays, he left and got a job with a company founded by a former official who's office had some input into chosing Open Sky.
In our area of the state, Northeast and Central Pa PSP has true interoperabilty right now. PSP cars have the local comm centers, using VHF, programmed in theuir radios.
I figured it out one day that the state could have upgraded what it has for about 100 million using P 25 technology. Whats the price today? Nearly 300 million. The thing driving the price up is the amount of towers needed to make 800 Mhz work. Much fewer towers for VHF.

I can never understand why the state would pick a patended system and not APCO P 25. It will probably cost taxpayers in the end. When it comes to replacing the radios the state will HAVE to go back to MA/Com. Why? Because no one else makes the patented format.