Philadelphia, PA - Philly could get 2,700 new police, fire radios

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b7spectra

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The biggest joke is that they are going to LEASE the equipment. I wonder if anyone did the math on what the cost of the equipment will be worth at the end of the lease? On an average, how many radio's will be damaged or destroyed and the city will have to pay FULL price for it? Bad choice.
 

shaft

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Leasing is actually a good option for the city. The only one who would care about the value of the equipment after the lease is up is the vendor and Im sure there is a provision in the lease about damaged/lost/stolen equipment. Either the city will pay some sort of replacement fee or there is some sort of insurance policy on that kind of stuff. I doubt the city will incur full cost for replacement.
 

b7spectra

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We are talking Motherola, remember? "It will only cost $12million to build your P25 system". 1 year later "It will only cost $10million to finish your P25 system". 6 months later "It will only cost $8million to fix your P25 system".
 

MTS2000des

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PHILADELPHIA - Police, firefighters and prison officials will receive about 2,700 new radios as part of a proposed upgrade to Philadelphia's emergency radio system.

Philly could get 2,700 new police, fire radios | AP | 04/30/2009

What is truly alarming is how short the life cycle of Philidelphia's Smartzone 4 system has played out to be...this system was installed in early 2002, that's only 7 years ago. Since it's installation it's been riddled with problems. And of course the typical Motorola answers to the problems and concerns come down to:

"Throw more money at it"
"Buy the latest version"
"We are no longer supporting xxxx this week"

No other company except Microsoft does business this way, dictating such ridiculous terms to their customers. A large investment like a 60 million dollar radio system for public safety should AT LEAST be viable for 10-15 if not 20 years of service before being due for replacement.

7 years? Are you kidding Motorola? Potential buyers of Astro 25 should ask the big question to their Motorola sales team and FTR's and that is:

How long is Astro 25 going to be a viable product, with P25 phase II, 700MHz LTE, and other superior technology just around the corner? What is the long term return on investment on financing such a huge capital cost if the system will be out of date, no longer supported, and yesterday's newspaper in 5-7 years when we aren't even done paying it off!

A more prudent move is to keep an existing, cost effective analog system running until something better than P25 phase I is out, tested, proven and reliable. Not to mention available from multiple vendors, not this sham that Astro 25 has turned out to be. It is foolish for government agencies who are closing fire stations, furloughing employees, and raising taxes to be wasting money replacing perfectly good, functioning radio systems just because a vendor wants to upsell their latest wares. Not to mention the problems that plague the P25 phase I vocoder, it seems clear that this is another opportunity for a vendor who is cash strapped and in dire financial straits (have you seen Ma M's stock price lately? Junk bond status so says S & P) to soak up as much money as possible from clients who don't know better and are often scared into buying new products they don't need.

This cycle will never end so long as government plays the proverbial fat rich guy. Problem is, like a great majority in this country, that is not the case anymore. Many local municipalities are in serious financial crisis. Like Atlanta, where I live. We are closing fire stations because not enough personnel can work due to mandatory furloughs yet Atlanta was conned into paying millions for an Astro 25 system to replace a perfectly good, functional 31 channel Smartnet II system that was brought online in late 1995. Motorola has EOL'ed a popular product in use for more than 20 years not because it has flaws, and has become affordable in comparison to it's replacement, but because they want to force adoption of their next cash cow. Misinformation and disinformation campaigns get going, such as the ludicrous assertion that "all public safety radio must be digital like the DTV switch". I always fall off my chair laughing when I hear that fecal vomit but you'd be amazed at the number of government officials who quote this fictional "digital radio mandate" which no doubt, are rumors spread by vendors who are out to make a killing off the coffers of John Q. Taxpayer. And the other worn out tape of "P25 gives you interoperability" gets played over and over, yet as in our case in Atlanta metro, with 14 different 800MHz trunking systems, a Cobb officer still won't talk to a Fulton officer- nevermind this promise was made back in the 90's by the SAME VENDOR (Motorola) who forced Smartnet as an "interoperability" solution and we all quickly dumped our perfectly good VHF and UHF conventional systems for 800.

We still don't talk to each other, and radio systems have little to do with it. But the sales team never tells the truth, like the belief that is all too common that somehow just because a subscriber radio is P25 capable means a VHF radio can talk to an 800, or a UHF can talk to a VHF radio. You'd be amazed at the number of people who actually believe this. And once again, the vendors are primarily responsible for this crap.

So, the Atlanta Fire Department will have nice, new digital radios to respond to those fire calls but no firefighters using them on the other end to answer. Absolutely absurd and demonstrates what is broken with the entire process.

You Philadelphians should ask yourself, when does this mad spending your money stop and when do you actually get what you paid for initially?
 

riccom

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No other company except Microsoft does business this way, dictating such ridiculous terms to their customers. A large investment like a 60 million dollar radio system for public safety should AT LEAST be viable for 10-15 if not 20 years of service before being due for replacement.
Ma/com has for a while, and has not fufilled there oblagation to pa and new york, and new york threw them out cause of we will fix it or "try this it will make it better for this much"

How long is Astro 25 going to be a viable product, with P25 phase II, 700MHz LTE, and other superior technology just around the corner? What is the long term return on investment on financing such a huge capital cost if the system will be out of date, no longer supported, and yesterday's newspaper in 5-7 years when we aren't even done paying it off!

Hence the leasing part on philidelpha's behalf

If there is an error correction upgrade for there p-25, since phliidelphia is leasing, they can get a upgrade for much cheaper cost or non at all to the tax payers!

We are talking Motherola, remember? "It will only cost $12million to build your P25 system". 1 year later "It will only cost $10million to finish your P25 system". 6 months later "It will only cost $8million to fix your P25 system".
and so since i bought a new computer i should demand a refund when the price drops. thats the nature of the beast

diffrent venders have diffrent prices

Ma/com said it was a price for the state of pa to build a system 10 years ago, and they still have not had it up fully?

price's drop in time its sad but when you lease, there is two benifits to this

if there is new harware upgrads thats "vital to communication," that have to give the upgrad at discounted or free, and if there is a bug they have to fix it saves techs man hours on the part of Philidelphia's behalf!

now my take on this

Good job phili your getting an upgrade!

at least its interoping with local counties around you, and not shun out like ohh St Tammany Lousiana or new orleans (pre lwin)
 

MTS2000des

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Riccom are you drinking some Ma M Kool aid?

sorry couldn't resist.

A couple of points, comparing your PC to a public safety radio system is like apples to oranges.
PC technology evolves at much quicker rate, and is not a mission critical piece of equipment such as public safety radio is. Not sure how long you've been in the radio business, but in my experience, most public safety radio systems traditionally are designed for 10-20 years of service before replacement is even considered. The city of New York PD's UHF analog conventional system is as old as I am, and works flawlessly. 95 percent in building portable coverage, and 99 percent on hip street level coverage. The NYPD radio system worked through 9/11 without a major failure. You should read up and see that the grass isn't always greener with digital trunked radio, and the fact that the two largest cities in America have always been conventional should speak volumes:

Digital trunked radio system failures | Daryl Jones' Weblog


Where was LATIE during Katrina? Oh yeah, that's right...can you say tango uniform? All the hot air Motorola blew in the WSJ about "having to use outdated technology like ham radio" was an insult and another case of the pot versus the kettle. Last I checked it was a MOTOROLA SmartZone system that failed. The EDACS system in NOLA was down due to a generator failure was it not? A generator that a MA/COM tech could not get access to because of stupid red tape courtesy of FEMA. So, sorry that Ma M systems have just as many issues as MA/Com.

Philadelphia should not have to spend more money to get what they already paid for, and that is a working radio system. and if you think that Motorola will happy trade in those leased radios and hardware when the next gen product comes out and they won't have to shell out more buckos, your blood sugar must be over the 600's full of that Ma M Kool Aid...

Interoperability? We've had that for years when most agencies used VHF conventional. Funny how all these high dollar digital radio systems fall back to ANALOG FM on common CONVENTIONAL mutual aid frequencies.

Tells you what really works when the chips are down doesn't it?
 

b7spectra

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Motherola has a BAD habit of getting a bid, in writing, that won't exceed $X,000,000.00. Period. So, what happens about 2-3 weeks before they are to turn the system (a system that is STATE OF THE ART) up to service? "Oh, there is the need for ANOTHER tower, and that cost will be $X,000,000.00 and if you don't pay it, the system won't work. Then, while the system is UNDER WARRANTY, Mottherola will get an earfull from the user because of multiple problems and say "Hmmm, that is NOT covered by the warranty, if you want us to fix it, it will cost you $X,000,000.00!"

My last laptop that I had (actually still have it, I use it for other things), was purchased in May 2003 (6 years ago), and it is still running, still pumping out data, still working just like it did the day I purchased it, and no one has told me that it is going to cost me MORE $$$ to make it run better (IF I want it to run better, I would be the one to do it, not contact Compaq to do it). How many systems out there are STILL up and running, without having to upgrade because Motherola tells them they need to? You get to some of the backwoods areas where they operate off a SIMIPLEX VHF-Hi single channel system, that has been in use for 25 years and someone comes in and tells you that if you spend $X,000,000.00 you will get a better system?

Strange how you can wine and dine people into purchasing something that they don't need.
 

MTS2000des

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Mike,

In all fairness the customer has just as much liability for purchasing these overpriced and under performing radio systems for not educating themselves and shopping around. I don't fault Motorola, MA/Com, Kenwood or anyone else for making a profit- that is their business model after all.

What I do have a problem with are the tactics of lies, deceit, misinformation and disinformation some vendors engage in to close deals and as a result, the taxpayers end up getting boned and we never get what we pay for. It's akin to the junkie and the crack dealer, no matter how much rock is sold, the junkie never reaches that high and the dealer just rakes it in.

The customer (governments) who entrust under educated individuals and paid consultants (who often have allegiances with select vendors) are as much to blame. This has become a problem in recent years where the responsibility of managing radio networks has been offloaded to IT departments. Often times the ones making evaluations, writing RFP's, etc don't know a megawatt from a milliwatt, and their RF engineering experience is limited to a 1 day course of implementing unlicensed part 15 WiFi networks in an office setting. So in the end, decisions get made based solely on what the vendor of choice is pushing, and the customer lacks the technical prowess to understand the real needs and issues facing the agency, and don't know there are often more cost effective options available that may serve their citizens much better than what the all to often single vendor is pushing on them.

I just think there is something VERY wrong with a situation like Philadelphia's and ours in Atlanta. In a city where we have several fire stations CLOSED due to LACK OF FUNDING, and the exiting mayor wants to raise property taxes by 7 percent or more, we are pissing millions away to buy essentially exactly the SAME thing we have now, that is FUNCTIONING perfectly. The money spent on these overpriced radios could have paid the salaries of enough staff for those closed stations and kept the apparatus running for at least 5 years, or been used to fill the many vacancies at APD. At a time with crime going way up in town, fires and tornadoes breaking out all over the city, you'd think this would be a priority but no no no...

we've gotta go digital because of "the DTV switch is going to make our analog radios stop working by 2013". I'm not kidding that is what some ignoramus at city hall East told me last year.


That is so America and what is really wrong with this country. People love being lied to, sadly the ones that believe it are the ones who don't know any better and are usually in positions of authority over the rest of us.

(I myself am using a 6 year old IBM ThinkPad T40 from 2003. Works fine, 1GB of RAM runs XP Pro wonderfully. Why replace something that works? Oh I am not drinking that blue Kool Aid!)
 
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