Picking the right license

[KF0NYL]

Tie up whose repeaters? If they have their own repeaters, they can "tie them up" as much as they want.

If somebody wants to put a repeater that gets used by a people working at a business, that's perfectly legal.

The problem is that those big commercial farms did NOT put up their own repeaters. They want to use repeaters that belong to others.

If the commercial farms want to use repeaters then they need to install their own repeaters for their use. I have no issues with them putting up their own repeaters as long as they coordinate with the other local repeater owners so there are no conflicts.

I manage our GMRS repeater and work with the other GMRS repeaters in the area. We have all had the same issue with the big commercial farms.

 

[bill4long]

The problem is that those big commercial farms did NOT put up their own repeaters. They want to use repeaters that belong to others.

Well, that's not nice, or legal, without permission.

If the commercial farms want to use repeaters then they need to install their own repeaters for their use. I have no issues with them putting up their own repeaters as long as they coordinate with the other local repeater owners so there are no conflicts.

I manage our GMRS repeater and work with the other GMRS repeaters in the area. We have all had the same issue with the big commercial farms.

How did you deal with them?

 

[KF0NYL]

I'll have to ask the other repeater owners how they dealt with it. All we did with ours is just tell them once when we heard them on our repeater.

The commercial farms wanting to use other's repeaters has been an issue before we installed our GMRS repeater.

 

[prcguy]

I built up a large GMRS multi mountaintop system in the 1980s for personal use between friends and there was a large hospital on the same frequency that used it for security guards. They never monitored and keyed up over other conversations and never used a callsign. They also had their own repeater at the tallest point of the hospital which spanned an entire city block. They were sort of grandfathered in after recent FCC changes at that time but not by the new rules that would not allow all the guards to use the hospital FCC license.

My partner in our GMRS system visited the hospital, found the person in charge of radios and had a conversation about the interference they were causing, FCC rules and that their old license didn’t allow the type of commercial use they needed and discussed moving them to the business radio service which they agreed to. I also remember my partner contacting the 2-way radio shop for the hospital informing them of the pending changes. A timeline was set for the hospital to move frequency and we waited, and waited. Numerous calls to the hospital guy in charge of radios would get a promise of it’s happening next week or something similar. Contacting the radio shop for the hospital we found no real conversation between the radio shop and hospital for the change, it was all BS as no licensing was in process, no crystals ordered for the hospital repeater, etc.

After many months of BS promises my radio partner went into the hospital with a hand truck, found a top floor room with a Motorola Micor repeater that keyed up on our frequency, disconnected it and dumped it in the guys office that was in charge of radios. Problem solved, no more interference from the heavy business user on GMRS.

Some of you are probably thinking we were in the wrong to ask the hospital to move frequency and get a new license. Or that it was breaking some laws to access their property, take an FCC licensed working repeater off air and dump it in an office. Looking back I would say yes to all. Would we do it again?

This all happened about 35yrs ago and we dismantled our big GMRS system over 20yrs ago in favor of other things. When I listen to GMRS today I hear a huge mess of high powered linked repeaters completely hogging a frequency or groups of people constantly cussing each other out and more. This seems to be how GMRS works now in many areas and it’s something to seriously consider if you are shopping for a radio service. If I still had a large investment in GMRS equipment today I would probably loose it and try to fix the problem by any means possible. What would you do under the same circumstances? Anyone else able to fix a problem like we had in the 1980s? Is the OP still considering GMRS after reading this?

 

[KF0NYL]

This all happened about 35yrs ago and we dismantled our big GMRS system over 20yrs ago in favor of other things. When I listen to GMRS today I hear a huge mess of high powered linked repeaters completely hogging a frequency or groups of people constantly cussing each other out and more. This seems to be how GMRS works now in many areas and it’s something to seriously consider if you are shopping for a radio service. If I still had a large investment in GMRS equipment today I would probably loose it and try to fix the problem by any means possible. What would you do under the same circumstances? Anyone else able to fix a problem like we had in the 1980s? Is the OP still considering GMRS after reading this?

While our GMRS repeater is open, we do have rules for using it. The big one is no business/commercial use. And it is for reasons I stated and inline with your experiences. We had long conversations with other GMRS repeater owners in our area before installing our repeater.

We do our best to keep conversations clean on all of our repeaters and don't have issues for the most part. We do get the occasional kerchunker and have had some ID10T play sirens over the air on our 2m and GMRS repeaters.

Some club members were worried that a GMRS repeater would be no different than how wild CB is now days. But so far we have not had that happen. All of the amateur and GMRS repeater owners here in Mid Missouri work well together to keep the shenanigans at a minimum.

 

[MTS2000des]

How does a repeater owner enforce the "Stay off my Lawn" when the rules specifically state:
No one licensee has particular precedence on any frequency
Everyone has to share

I mean, one could argue that they aren't using your particular repeater, it just happens to be there and when the frequency is clear (per the rules) so long as they operate within the rules, you have no more "right" to use those channels than any other GMRS licensee.

This is why linked repeaters and amateur repeater operations don't jive well on part 95. In part 95, you CAN ban users from a repeater and the FCC will back you up. Give that the Pepsi challenge with part 95 and I'll bet you'll be told to "suck it up, buttercup. Every student rides the bus together"

 

[KF0NYL]

Well in the case of the local GMRS repeaters in my area it is simple. One starts with sending cease and desist letters and go from there. The issues we have had in the past is the commercial farms using repeaters that they do NOT own. Plus the fact that they are running illegal with only one GMRS license being used by employees that are not immediate family members.

Not much could be done about a family farm running under a single GMRS license. But a commercial farm is a different story.

Now it would be harder to do anything if the commercial farms decided to install their own repeaters on the same channels as already existing repeaters. And there is not much that can be done if they are using simplex channels either.

The point that I am making is we have had issues with commercial farms using repeaters that do not belong to said farms.

For us, we do not act like we own the GMRS channels. It boils down to what I have mentioned above about the commercial farms not doing things correctly.

All of the GMRS repeaters in my area are owned by people/clubs/organizations that also own multiple amateur radio repeaters and we all work together to keep from causing interference between the repeaters.

 

[MTS2000des]

One can send "cease and desist" letters but without actual legal basis, one could also get sued for harassment, slander, libel, etc. It works both ways. There's an interesting case in North Carolina going on right now. It's cost many quite a few bucks just defending themselves. I'd be careful about threatening anyone these days if one doesn't have documented case law or CFR section to site.

Fact is, no one can legally tell one to "stay off" a GMRS frequency IF they are properly licensed. If a repeater happens to exist, it's up to the repeater owner to control access to it and as 47 CFR 95 states, ALL USERS MUST SHARE and cooperate in a "listen before talk" basis- including repeaters.

Those are the rules. Bullying folks around without merit is how people wind up in courts. But do as one wishes.

Turn your repeater off when you hear them- or use DTMF or some type of controlled access method (like split tones/DCS, etc) and eventually they will go away because they will get tired of being interrupted or having to reprogram their farm fleet of radios every day.

 

[N4DES]

Mainly just personal business from time to time. It doesn’t need to be encrypted but we need to be able to cover a larger area around 10-25 miles at a time. The gmrs might be my best bet if there isn’t a better option. 7 out of the 14 people would be related so gmrs would cover That.

We travel to various locations where we would need large area coverage so I was considering having a mobile repeater that we could activate when we get on site.

Most time we are outside but there are times we need the signal to reach through buildings.

Look into the itinerant Part 90 license and see if it's a fit. Here's an example of one. ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Conventional License - WQXP535 - Mobile-One Communications and Electronics, Inc

 

[prcguy]

One can send "cease and desist" letters but without actual legal basis, one could also get sued for harassment, slander, libel, etc. It works both ways. There's an interesting case in North Carolina going on right now. It's cost many quite a few bucks just defending themselves. I'd be careful about threatening anyone these days if one doesn't have documented case law or CFR section to site.

Fact is, no one can legally tell one to "stay off" a GMRS frequency IF they are properly licensed. If a repeater happens to exist, it's up to the repeater owner to control access to it and as 47 CFR 95 states, ALL USERS MUST SHARE and cooperate in a "listen before talk" basis- including repeaters.

Those are the rules. Bullying folks around without merit is how people wind up in courts. But do as one wishes.

Turn your repeater off when you hear them- or use DTMF or some type of controlled access method (like split tones/DCS, etc) and eventually they will go away because they will get tired of being interrupted or having to reprogram their farm fleet of radios every day.

If someone is knowingly using your repeater without your permission that goes a different direction. I had a “state citizen” idiot that showed up on one of my GMRS repeaters claiming since the radio waves crossed onto his property he was entitled to use it. It took awhile to convince the idiot he was wrong and it didn’t end well for him. I can put up with some foul language here and there and a busy channel if everyone understands is shared and behaves, but bad behavior will be called out and escalated if necessary. Is the OP ready to deal with all this if he goes the GMRS route?

 

[KF0NYL]

Fact is, no one can legally tell one to "stay off" a GMRS frequency IF they are properly licensed. If a repeater happens to exist, it's up to the repeater owner to control access to it and as 47 CFR 95 states

As you just stated, YES we absolutely can control who uses our repeater and that is what we do by not allowing commercial./business use on our repeater.

It would be different if the commercial farms would A) ask permission to use the different area repeaters and B) if they actually followed the FCC regulations when it comes to licensing. One GMRS license only cover the individual and their immediate family, it does not cover a business's employees who are not immediate family.

Again as I said earlier, we can't stop people from setting up their own repeater even if they happen to use the same channel as our repeater. But we can definitely stop them from using our repeater.

One can send "cease and desist" letters but without actual legal basis, one could also get sued for harassment, slander, libel, etc

And sending a cease and desist letter drawn up by a lawyer is not harassment. Especially if they are using our repeater without permission. Harassment would be us constantly confronting the person(s) for using our repeater without permission. There is a difference.

 

[MTS2000des]

And sending a cease and desist letter drawn up by a lawyer is not harassment. Especially if they are using our repeater without permission. Harassment would be us constantly confronting the person(s) for using our repeater without permission. There is a difference.

But how do you say he/she can't operate on a given frequency pair when every licensee has equal access?

 

[KF0NYL]

But how do you say he/she can't operate on a given frequency pair when every licensee has equal access?

Boy you just love to argue and also misread and misinterpret what others say. I never said others could not use the same frequency/channel. What I said is that we can keep others from using our repeater. There is a big difference there.

 

[AK9R]

What I said is that we can keep others from using our repeater.

I know that there is a rule in Part 97 that gives amateur radio repeater owners and trustees the authority to limit who can use their repeater.

What rule in Part 95E grants this authority to GMRS repeater owners?

 

[K6GBW]

I just don't get why anyone would want to take on the absolute nonsense that putting up a GMRS repeater for what the OP is describing. Not unless you just enjoy being frustrated and getting into conflicts. Believe me, we have people like that here is LA. But for basically a general purpose BS'ing radio why? Just get some DTR's and be done with it. I keep a pair for caravaning on trips and other activities afield. For backpacking I use simple FRS because I've never had a problem with jamming in the back country and it might be handy to be able to talk to someone else. Plus, they are cheap, easy to charge and I won't get pissed if I drop one down a 500 foot cliff.

 

[MTS2000des]

I know that there is a rule in Part 97 that gives amateur radio repeater owners and trustees the authority to limit who can use their repeater.

What rule in Part 95E grants this authority to GMRS repeater owners?

Probably referring to 95.1705 sec d 3 which says:
Individual licensee duties. The holder of an individual license:


(1) Shall determine specifically which individuals, including family members, are allowed to operate (i.e., exercise operational control over) its GMRS station(s) (see paragraph (c) of this section);

(2) May allow any person to use (i.e., benefit from the operation of) its GMRS repeater, or alternatively, may limit the use of its GMRS repeater to specific persons;

(3) May disallow the use of its GMRS repeater by specific persons as may be necessary to carry out its responsibilities under this section.

But then the FCC says the following which seems to conflict with the rule above:

None of the GMRS channels are assigned for the exclusive use of any system. Licensees must cooperate in the selection and use of the channels under a “listen-before-talk” etiquette in order to use them most effectively and to reduce the possibility of interference.

Which brings me back to my original point: sending letters to a licensee who is legitimately using the shared channels for lawful GMRS purposes has a valid, affirmative defense. No one, repeater owners included, have exclusive privilege to use any frequency and EVERYONE has to share. Sure, one can disable/limit their repeater availability, but if there are no coordinated repeater allocations (like exist in part 97 and part 90), no one can say "stay off these frequencies" if they "listen before talk". The fact that their transmissions are picked up and retransmitted becomes incidental.

 

[bill4long]

(2) May allow any person to use (i.e., benefit from the operation of) its GMRS repeater, or alternatively, may limit the use of its GMRS repeater to specific persons;

(3) May disallow the use of its GMRS repeater by specific persons as may be necessary to carry out its responsibilities under this section.

But then the FCC says the following which seems to conflict with the rule above:

None of the GMRS channels are assigned for the exclusive use of any system. Licensees must cooperate in the selection and use of the channels under a “listen-before-talk” etiquette in order to use them most effectively and to reduce the possibility of interference.

There is no conflict at all. The question of allowing/disallowing use of one's repeater is not the same issue as cooperating with regards to channel sharing. Several means of cooperating exists, such as changing frequencies, utilitizing squelch control, access control, listen-before-transmit, etc.

1. Everyone using GMRS is required to cooperate with regard to using the channels.

2. Repeater owners can allow/disallow permission to access their repeaters. Most repeaters have some access control. (CTCSS at bare minimum. If they don't, that's just stupid and not following the spirit of cooperation the rules require.) If I disallow you from using my repeater, and you intentionally transmit on my repeater's input frequency and you intentionally attempt to circumvent whatever means I have in place to regulate such access, such as squelch control using a particular CTCSS or DCS, you're clearly in violation.

Not complicated.

 

[alcahuete]

What rule in Part 95E grants this authority to GMRS repeater owners?

As I recall, you don't need any rule at all. A repeater is considered private property, and the FCC has ruled on that many times.


However, there is also this:

95.1705: Individual licensee duties. The holder of an individual license:

(1) Shall determine specifically which individuals, including family members, are allowed to operate (i.e., exercise operational control over) its GMRS station(s) (see paragraph (c) of this section);

(2) May allow any person to use (i.e., benefit from the operation of) its GMRS repeater, or alternatively, may limit the use of its GMRS repeater to specific persons;

(3) May disallow the use of its GMRS repeater by specific persons as may be necessary to carry out its responsibilities under this section.



Then there's this interesting section.


(f) Cooperative use of GMRS stations. GMRS licensees may share the use of their stations with other persons eligible in the GMRS, subject to the conditions and limitations in this paragraph.

(1) The GMRS station to be shared must be individually owned by the licensee, jointly owned by the participants and the licensee, leased individually by the licensee, or leased jointly by the participants and the licensee.


(2) The licensee must maintain access to and control over all stations authorized under its license.


(3) A station may be shared only:

(i) Without charge;

(ii) On a non-profit basis, with contributions to capital and operating expenses including the cost of mobile stations and paging receivers prorated equitably among all participants; or

(iii) On a reciprocal basis, i.e., use of one licensee's stations for the use of another licensee's stations without charge for either capital or operating expenses.


(4) All sharing arrangements must be conducted in accordance with a written agreement to be kept as part of the station records.




Does 4 apply to repeaters? That's interesting too, specifically with "open" repeaters.