Scanners Illegal?

Status
Not open for further replies.

richster

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
532
Reaction score
0
Location
Regina, Sask.
They should actually READ section 9(2).

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/R-2/bo-ga:s_16//en

Someone should inform them about what the word AND in the section means to the overall meaning. If you Intercept AND divulge, or intercept AND use it for personal gain (comitting offences for example).

Not just intercept........Do they just hire stupid people in Government these days.

Regards,
Richster.
 

Jammin_Jay

Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
718
Reaction score
4
I am just curious if Canadian Law would take Presidence over Provincial Law in regards to montoring on a scanner, or even having a scanner in your car. It's just my assumption that minimum basic law must be federal, and then the provinces can make any additives regarding that law. I am no lawyer. And as for the Industry Canada exemption for Digital Scanners, that area is as grey as grey matter, that I don't think industry canada even explains things in specifics regarding this subject that has caused of lot of contraversy. Where is this so called license (permit) , and how is it obtained? There is none. It seems to me, no one at Industry Canada can explain it either, or avoiding it to the average Canadian scanner hobbiest, who is not a ham operator. Does seem to be a problem in the U.S. with the FCC, why Industry Canada in this country?
 
Last edited:

motomeso

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
952
Reaction score
28
Location
Ontario
Well they quoted the Radio Communications act and not the Criminal Code so I am guessing not.

Worse off they quoted the Communications act and used their own words to twist the actual truth.

From the Alberta Goverment Page

Scanners

There are two types of scanners:
Analog – Section 9(2) of the Radiocommunication Regulations prohibit the use of police scanners, unless you have written permission from the police service you are monitoring. You are then required to apply for a radio licence through Industry Canada.

From the Radiocommunication Act

Section 9(2) Except as prescribed, no person shall intercept and make use of, or intercept and divulge, any radiocommunication, except as permitted by the originator of the communication or the person intended by the originator of the communication to receive it.

And again from the Alberta Goverment Page

Digital – Digital scanners are illegal in Canada, unless you have a specific exemption through Industry Canada.

Seems they are right in that you need to get an exemption though Industry Canada to legally operate a Digital Scanner in Canada. It seems though that everybody that has tried to apply for one has been denied. The only exception are people in Public Safety or Ham Radio Operators according to Industry Canada.

The law isn't enforced and the Canadian retailers will now sell a Digital scanner to anybody but that wasn't the case in the beginning.
 

richster

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
532
Reaction score
0
Location
Regina, Sask.
What pisses me off is that you have an official Provincial Government website (Alberta) printing information that is totally FALSE

It wouldn't be so bad if they were basing the illegal use of scanners on their own legislaton, but they seem to derive this "theory" from federal law (AKA Radio Act).


Alberta Gevernment says:

Scanners

There are two types of scanners:
Analog – Section 9(2) of the Radiocommunication Regulations prohibit the use of police scanners, unless you have written permission from the police service you are monitoring. You are then required to apply for a radio licence through Industry Canada.
Digital – Digital scanners are illegal in Canada, unless you have a specific exemption through Industry Canada.

I already posted the section and how they misinterprated it. Think obout it, if the above quote is the ACTUAL interpretation of section 9(2) then Radioworld and Durhamradio should be raided and shut down for providing illegal scanners to the public. Not to mention the jailing of us law abiding citizens who own any type of scanner, be it digital or analog.

No wonder the items for sale on this site only ship to the lower 48 most of the time. I don't blame them.

I said it once (or twice), and I'll say it again. Government.....don't get me started.

Regards,
Richster.
 

newtoscanning

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
154
Reaction score
0
Slightly off topic.

As per the title this is slighly off topic but, according to that alberta private investigators act private security aren't allowed to carry billy clubs, night sticks etc.

I've seen a tone of security (private) carrying these types of weapons, are they breaking the law or do they get special permits?
 

LordJ

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
635
Reaction score
1
Location
South-Eastern, Ontario
The Alberta Government page is correct in my eyes. They are talking about Private investigators use of scanners, which according to the letter of the law, is illegal for them to use because they would be intercepting and making use of... is this not right?
 
Last edited:

richster

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
532
Reaction score
0
Location
Regina, Sask.
LordJ said:
The Alberta Government page is correct in my eyes. They are talking about Private investigators use of scanners, which according to the letter of the law, is illeagle for them to use because they would be intercepting and making use of... is this not right?

Huh! when initially viewing this document, I just automatically went down and read the section about scanners without reading the main heading. With reading that, I have found I took the whole page out of context. You are absoulutley correct LordJ, thanks for pointing that out. My apologies to Ralph!, or to whoever is running the joint now.

Regards,
Richster.
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Reaction score
380
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
The SolGen website provided refers to the Radiocommunication Regulations, not the Radiocommunications Act. The Act is what enables the Regulations. So if you're looking for 9(2) of the Regulations, this is what it says (in fact, all of Section 9 - subsection 2 is the last 2 lines, which I've bolded).

Code:
Eligibility

9. (1) The following persons are eligible to be issued radio licences as radiocommunication users or radiocommunication service providers other than radiocommunication carriers in all services except the amateur radio service:

(a) an individual who is

(i) a citizen within the meaning of subsection 2(1) of the Citizenship Act,

(ii) a permanent resident within the meaning of subsection 2(1) of the Immigration Act, or

(iii) a non-resident who has been issued an employment authorization under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act;

(b) a corporation that is incorporated or continued under the laws of Canada or a province;

(c) a partnership or joint venture where each partner or co-venturer is eligible to be issued a radio licence under this subsection;

(d) a Canadian government, whether federal, provincial or local, or an agency thereof;

(e) the Government of a country other than Canada, which is a signatory to the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, done at Vienna, April 18, 1961;

(f) any person who is the registered owner of an aircraft that is registered in Canada, for the establishment and operation of a station on board the aircraft;

(g) any person who is the registered or licensed owner of a ship or vessel that is registered under the Canada Shipping Act or licensed under the Coasting Trade Act, for the establishment and operation of a station on board the ship or vessel; and

(h) any person who is a resident of a country other than Canada, who

(i) seeks to establish and operate a radio station designed for interconnection with a public switched network, or

(ii) requires a radio licence for radio apparatus used for a special event of a limited duration.

[b]  (2) [Repealed, SOR/2000-78, s. 1]

SOR/2000-78, s. 1; 2001, c. 27, s. 273.[/b]

Enjoy!
 

DewAddict

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
134
Reaction score
48
Location
Michigan
I am traveling to Windsor this month via Detroit Tunnel and am wondering if I should leave my Motorolas at home? I don't want any trouble but at the same time would like to utilize the 2-meter stations in Windsor. I am a licensed HAM in the states.

Can anyone tell me how Customs reacts to radios and if I should/should not bring them or what to expect.

Thanks,

Rob
 

mciupa

Canadian DB Admin
Moderator
Joined
Nov 5, 2002
Messages
8,964
Reaction score
2,493
Location
I'm here a lot
If you produce proper credentials upon request , there should be no problem.
 

DewAddict

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
134
Reaction score
48
Location
Michigan
ok, meaning Amateur license and anything else???

Thanks for the fast reply.

Rob
 

richster

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
532
Reaction score
0
Location
Regina, Sask.
DewAddict said:
ok, meaning Amateur license and anything else???

Thanks for the fast reply.

Rob

Hi Rob,

The elegibilty requirements to possess a digital scanner in Canada was repealed, it's states this in Jay's last post.

I think this was an attempt by Industry Canada to make money through another licencing scheme. Then someone must have smacked them in the head, reminding them that it would have cost more to administrate this than what would actually come in from the licencing fees (CB licences ring a bell). They must have all screamed at once; "Oh yeahhhhh!".

Also read this post: http://www.radioreference.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45173

You might want to get a hold of Midnightcaller to see if he had any problems bringing his 996T over.

Regards,
Richster.
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Reaction score
380
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
Just to clarify - the section showing up as repealed is the one that is referenced in ve3nsv's post, quoted from the Alberta Government website, regarding prohibiting analog scanners.

I still maintain that the claims about the digital scanner license, even by government officials, are caused by lack of knowledge and communication on the part of the government agencies. No one wants to err on the side of allowing something that's possibly illegal, so they will say that it's illegal and avoid any repercussions later. You can't get in trouble for NOT breaking the law, right? Even if the law doesn't exist? :roll:

I should mention that late last year I was given direction by another RR forum member to a license published in the TAFL in western Canada to an individual, which appears to be a scanner oriented license, as it is registered for receive only on the band limits traditionally associated with a scanner. Is it a "digital scanner license"? I have my doubts. It's a normal license, as if it were issued to your local fire department or trucking company, except.. it's receive only. Since when have we needed to be granted permission to receive signals?
 

exkalibur

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Messages
3,076
Reaction score
640
Location
York, Ontario
The CBC (or maybe it was City...I don't recall) had the old Toronto Fire/Police/EMS channels licensed for RX only by Industry Canada. From what I've heard, this was to avoid any issues with using the scanner to hear calls.

According to the Radiocommunications Act, it's illegal to own/posess/operate radio apparatus you aren't licensed for. There doesn't seem to be an exception for scanners. However, it does say that if the receiver is capable of receiving a "broadcast undertaking", it is exempt from this. Weatherradio is considered a "Broadcast Undertaking" because it's transmitted for the purpose of public reception.
 

jellotor

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2004
Messages
1,077
Reaction score
1
Location
Hamilton, ON
Well, for that matter most scanners today are capable of receiving in WFM mode and can listen in on television audio. Which would certainly be a broadcast undertaking.
 

Lexxx

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
221
Reaction score
8
Location
Kitchener, Canada
exkalibur said:
...................According to the Radiocommunications Act, it's illegal to own/posess/operate radio apparatus you aren't licensed for. There doesn't seem to be an exception for scanners...............

The Radiocommunication Act does make statements to that effect, however the Privacy Act also must be considered and always comes into play in any legal argument. It is impossible to isolate a specific Canadian government Act and try to make a ruling or judgment to the exclusion of all other Acts. It can't be done.

It would be like saying, "This paragraph in the Constitution says you can't do it. I don't care about any other references in the Constitution on the same subject." Not a reasonable position.

When there is any discussion about the Radiocommunications Act as relates to dissemination of frequencies in Canada, the Privacy Act always comes into play at some point because it always applies, and provides a basis for an argument on the subject one way or the other.

The distribution of scanned frequencies is permitted in Canada so long as the content is not deemed to be "personal information" as defined by the Privacy Act. To be considered "personal information", the information must be About an Individual, that individual Must be Identifiable, and the information Must be Recorded. This is word for word from an appeals judge on a case related to Air Traffic Control frequencies between Nav Canada and the CBC.

Nav Canada (Canadian Air Traffic Control provider) initially won an argument, but remember all the transcripts were recorded in this situation. If you don't record your transmissions, or make them available, you are in the clear for sure. Just listening is perfectly legal.

The Case as I understand is still being appealed. A partial transcript of the appeal is listed below

-------------------------------

Issue Before the Court of Appeal

3. Whether the Application Judge erred in fact and in law with respect to the application of paragraph 19(2)(b) of the Act regarding public availability of information contained in recordings and transcripts of ATC radiocommunications on public radio frequencies reserved to the aeronautical service;

4. Whether the Application Judge erred in fact and in law with respect to the application of paragraph 19(2)(c) of the Act, and paragraphs 8(2)(a), (b) and subparagraph 8(2)(m)(i) of the Privacy Act;

5. Whether the Application Judge erred in fact and in law by refusing to determine the constitutionality of subsection 9(2) of the Radiocommunication Act, relating to the public availability, the use and the dissemination of information contained in ATC radiocommunications on public radio frequencies reserved to the aeronautical service; and

6. Whether subsection 9(2) of the Radiocommunication Act, as it relates to ATC radiocommunications, is contrary to paragraph 2(b) of the Charter and cannot be upheld by section 1 of the Charter.

Outcome

The appeal was heard on February 28 and March 1, 2006, and judgment was reserved.

--------------------------------

This all relates to captured Air Traffic Control frequencies, but similarities with all scanner frequencies seem pretty obvious.

Ragarding ownership of a Digital scanner. I have a 996T digital scanner. I bought it via mail order from the states and it went through Canadian customs clearly labeled as a digital scanner. There is certainly no question, digital scanners are allowed in Canada.

It may well be that the law will change and a higher court will deem it unlawful to capture and disseminate available air traffic frequencies in Canada, but at the moment there does not seem to be enough for any police agency to take any sort of action.

If anyone finds anything to the contrary coming from the courts (not some political wish list), please let us all know.

Cheers
Peter
www.ykf.ca
 
Last edited:

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Reaction score
380
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
By the way, folks -

For those who are citing the scanbc.com case as proof that CBSA is cracking down and removing scanners from Canadian hands at the border, I decided to read through the 5 or 6 pages of thread on scanbc to its completion last night. The most recent news in that particular case is that CBSA was NOT involved in the 'seizure' of the scanner and the RCMP is in the process of a fraud & theft investigation - and the person who bought the scanner has it in his hands now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top