School radios, multiple different units

[jelimoore]

To add to what @12dbsinad said, a school I do work for sometimes has a super nice Trbo system. They have 3500e handhelds and an SLR5700. They got totally oversold imo. You can key up on that system from 5 miles away. The entire school is 60-70 years old, has tunnels, asbestos, the whole 9 yards. There is no way in hell wifi would be reliable in those areas, let alone to a point where voice would be intelligible. Point is, wifi radios shouldn't be considered as more than pagers imo. Handheld radios will work for a ways while with wifi handhelds you are locked to your infrastructure. Network crashed? Bye bye radios. Power outage for more than 20 minutes? Bye bye radios. That's assuming you don't have a generator for the building though - most schools around me don't. Don't get me wrong, they have their place, but here it's a bad idea.

 

[n5ims]

You can pretty much bet that at least one school will be using FRS radios. After all, they're cheap, secure (talking as a non-radio person that reads that there are so many channels and tone combinations that must match for them to work correctly, not as a radio person that understands how they really work), can be isolated so the bus pick-up lines won't interfere with the coaches on the practice field … No license needed so they'll be legal so no paddling necessary, well until you explain how any scanner can hear the parent pick-up line folks calling out the child's last name when their parent is near the pick-up area.

 

[jelimoore]

You can pretty much bet that at least one school will be using FRS radios. After all, they're cheap, secure (talking as a non-radio person that reads that there are so many channels and tone combinations that must match for them to work correctly, not as a radio person that understands how they really work), can be isolated so the bus pick-up lines won't interfere with the coaches on the practice field … No license needed so they'll be legal so no paddling necessary, well until you explain how any scanner can hear the parent pick-up line folks calling out the child's last name when their parent is near the pick-up area.

This is also true, the grade school I went to from K-4 used (still might, idk) basic FRS radios too. They're cheap and don't require a license, although admittedly I don't believe commercial use is covered under the FRS system.

 

[mmckenna]

although admittedly I don't believe commercial use is covered under the FRS system.

Businesses and schools are permitted to use FRS.

 

[buddrousa]

Although allowed in today's world FSR's are not a good idea.
As far as security and FSR you might as well put a big flashing sign in front of the school saying what your plans are.

 

[jelimoore]

Businesses and schools are permitted to use FRS.

Interesting - just looked up the reference to the regulation. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[N5XPM]

I have cleaned up this elsewhere at a district with about 10 campuses within 15 miles. We started with creating an inventory of all the radios on each campus, along with the existing FCC licenses and repeaters. We ended up licensing and adding a conventional facilities repeater with multiple tones to complement existing transportation repeater and reprogramming every radio with some individual campus channels as well as common district wide channels. Even had agreement to talk directly with EMS personnel from campus radios.
Facilities maintenance personnel had district wide communications across the district and the campus folks were able to talk without interference to other campus personnel. Worked well. Very affordable but not free with very low annual operating costs. Not free, but negligible compared to overall district budget. Probably less than the total savings on fuel that has been realized this year with idle busses and low fuel prices. If you have NO budget and can't obtain one, you do have not meaningful support from leadership, then no point in starting the project as it will be an embarrassing and frustrating failure.

 

[krokus]

I am the facilities director for a school district with 6 schools. I have workers at each school I need to contact often, and cell service is terrible in most of the schools.

Each location has a different type and brand radio that they use.

Is it possible to use a programmable radio to communicate with each school without needing 6 different units? Like a uv5r or something? Also, would that be legal to do?

Thanks!

How far apart are the facilities?

 

[Tech21]

I am the facilities director for a school district with 6 schools. I have workers at each school I need to contact often, and cell service is terrible in most of the schools.

Each location has a different type and brand radio that they use.

Is it possible to use a programmable radio to communicate with each school without needing 6 different units? Like a uv5r or something? Also, would that be legal to do?

Thanks!

What you need is the schools to agree to a standard radio and where the funding is coming from.

Unless the schools are close together, an HT would be useless without a repeater. There are commercial radios that cover more than one frequency band, but a single HT will cost at least a couple of thousand dollars and you will still need a repeater for each frequency. The Baofeng radios could work but are at the bottom of the quality scale and not the best choice. You would need a license for each frequency, but if there are radios in use, that may already be covered. If there are no licenses, this is not a do it yourself project.

Baofeng is pretty much banned from operating in the US though.

 

[speedway_navigator]

They got totally oversold imo.

A Moto sales person did that? nah, don't believe it...

 

[jaspence]

Tech21, there are so many already here, and they are still being offered on ebay, Amazon, and many other sights. I have a couple, but would never use them for anything important, especially storm spotting ot volunteer work.

 

[norcalscan]

Is it possible to use a programmable radio to communicate with each school without needing 6 different units? Like a uv5r or something? Also, would that be legal to do?

I was in K12 edtech for 19 years and managed their comms too. A lot of this thread got off track and missed your original question. It happens often here, we radio geeks like to expand and build on the smallest of ideas. Yes, there is an excellent little radio that is legal, your size and your price, that will likely get you close to what you need, a single radio that can tune into each site once you're on site. School 1 channel 1, school 2 channel 2, etc. Look up the Tera TR500 from Powerwerx.

However, what many here have stated still holds, you'll need to figure out what frequency, tone and emission each school site is using. Collect all that information and as long as none of it is "digital" like DMR, the TR500 radio I mentioned can do it. DMR might be involved, and if so, you'll jump from the TR500 to this guy. To collect that info, you either need to grab a radio from each school and take them to a radio shop to read the info, or find a subject matter expert internally, a teacher with a ham radio license, or even a parent. Programming your radio will also require a subject matter expert, the right software and cable (purchased from same location). If you hit a wall, try your IT Dept. It might be foreign to them, but bring their favorite snack of choice and they'll be glad to tinker. Those that brought me chocolate chip cookies were guaranteed to see me by the end of the day, no matter the ticket. I don't know how that happens.

Don't worry about this now but FCC Licensing and that paperwork is another bugger, and as Facilities Manager, it might eventually fall on your lap. It's either Facilities or IT that an FCC license typically is managed in the school system. There are some amazing services out there that are white-glove hands-off that can take care of it for you, for maybe $500 or less up front, and then $100 labor every 10 years to renew. There is no annual fee etc to be properly licensed. If you find a radio shop in town or nearby (who does your bus radios?) ask them what they charge for FCC licensing services. It's always nice to support the local shop but sometimes they can have a pretty big head (they tend to monopolize a large area). If you feel their services aren't matching their price, try EWA for your licensing. That's who I use when I don't have the energy or time to deal with it.

Feel free to message me if you get lost in the weeds. Radio is a large world and it can feel like going from a roadside ditch to the grand canyon in 3 steps...stay out of the canyon.

 

[Dishsoap]

I was in K12 edtech for 19 years and managed their comms too. A lot of this thread got off track and missed your original question. It happens often here, we radio geeks like to expand and build on the smallest of ideas. Yes, there is an excellent little radio that is legal, your size and your price, that will likely get you close to what you need, a single radio that can tune into each site once you're on site. School 1 channel 1, school 2 channel 2, etc. Look up the Tera TR500 from Powerwerx.

However, what many here have stated still holds, you'll need to figure out what frequency, tone and emission each school site is using. Collect all that information and as long as none of it is "digital" like DMR, the TR500 radio I mentioned can do it. DMR might be involved, and if so, you'll jump from the TR500 to this guy. To collect that info, you either need to grab a radio from each school and take them to a radio shop to read the info, or find a subject matter expert internally, a teacher with a ham radio license, or even a parent. Programming your radio will also require a subject matter expert, the right software and cable (purchased from same location). If you hit a wall, try your IT Dept. It might be foreign to them, but bring their favorite snack of choice and they'll be glad to tinker. Those that brought me chocolate chip cookies were guaranteed to see me by the end of the day, no matter the ticket. I don't know how that happens.

Don't worry about this now but FCC Licensing and that paperwork is another bugger, and as Facilities Manager, it might eventually fall on your lap. It's either Facilities or IT that an FCC license typically is managed in the school system. There are some amazing services out there that are white-glove hands-off that can take care of it for you, for maybe $500 or less up front, and then $100 labor every 10 years to renew. There is no annual fee etc to be properly licensed. If you find a radio shop in town or nearby (who does your bus radios?) ask them what they charge for FCC licensing services. It's always nice to support the local shop but sometimes they can have a pretty big head (they tend to monopolize a large area). If you feel their services aren't matching their price, try EWA for your licensing. That's who I use when I don't have the energy or time to deal with it.

Feel free to message me if you get lost in the weeds. Radio is a large world and it can feel like going from a roadside ditch to the grand canyon in 3 steps...stay out of the canyon.

It took me a little while but I was able to track down some information on each school's radios. Most are using an RDR 2500, one is using RDR 1520, And one is using a VX 261. I tracked down where they purchased the radios from and was able to have them send me the frequencies listed for each of the RDRs.

None of the site building principles seem to know anything about having an FCC license. I am very new to all of this so I don't have much knowledge on licensing as well. My goal however is to be in compliance in every aspect of facilities. What should the next step be for me to ensure compliance in our district?

Any advice is greatly appreciated

 

[mmckenna]

What should the next step be for me to ensure compliance in our district?

Any advice is greatly appreciated

Depends on what your budget is...
If you have a suitable budget, your best option would be to hire a communications consultant. Lay out all the info you have, which licenses you may (or may not…) have, and then tell them what your end goal is.
They will help you design a system using as much of the suitable equipment you have as a starting place. They can help with licensing and adding the right equipment to meet your goals. It won't be cheap, but it'll be done right.

If you have slightly less than a suitable budget, you could talk to local radio shops and find one that you think you can trust. As above, lay out what you have, and where you want to go. They can help you get properly licensed and use some of your existing equipment to get moving in the right direction. But, since they are a radio shop, they are really going to want to sell you a lot of new gear that you may or may not need. They will take your budget and exceed that. In the end, you'll likely end up paying more than if you had just hired a consultant in the first place.

Seriously, if this is a big system, or will become a big system, you need a professional to design things correctly. You are not going to get the info you need from a hobby radio site, and you won't end up with a suitable system. There are just too many details to be covered on a site like this.

 

[icom1020]

Funny and unique conversation. I was hired at a high school in a 1:1 role with a student who is in constant problem solving with others including breaking up conflicts.

I wasn’t issued a radio but I already figured out their 2 slot DMR system. Repeater is 3 blocks away at the middle school. I told my assistant principal that I had my own radio and she said “ just keep the volume down and stay on CH 12.” I used a Retevis VHF with a superhet receiver , it’s the perfect size and most students don’t know it’s there.

CH 12 is security / SRO and CH 10 custodial and main office. Buses are on CH 12 TS 1 and we’re on TS 2 I don’t see an issue with the type of radio since the district office also has a BITech 6x2 along with the Motorola handhelds.

I also got a first hand knowledge, other than part 97 DMR on the complex programming of institutional systems and having that radio has paid off for safety reasons. One of the Union recommendations is ‘ do we have access to a radio ‘? But I would always ask first and explain the situation to an administrator since it’s their license for authorization.

 

[norcalscan]

It took me a little while but I was able to track down some information on each school's radios. Most are using an RDR 2500, one is using RDR 1520, And one is using a VX 261. I tracked down where they purchased the radios from and was able to have them send me the frequencies listed for each of the RDRs.

Great job on the radio intel. Unfortunately it's still not any easier of an answer. The VX261 is analog, and the Tera 500 radio I mentioned earlier would supplement whatever is programmed into it. However the RDR 2500 is DMR capable so that site might be digital. If you have an ear for radio, you could tell if it was digital or analog, but likely you don't. So step 1 complete, you got the radio intel. Step 2 is now to either find a subject matter expert internal (look to see if there's an Icom1020 hiding on your staff, or your county/regional office of education has knowledge), or take the radios to the local radio shop and ask them for the info. You can try and ask them to show you how, but that would go against their business model. Without internal expertise, you'll need to budget for the radio shop. Did you find out who does your bus radios? That would be the radio shop to try out. They can then also help with any licensing, and make everything compliant. Without understanding radio you'll have to have a lot of trust in not being sold a bag of goods. Some shops are slimy that way and give a bad name to the rest of the great shops that are out there.

They'll either maintain status quo, expanding on what each school's existing system is, or they might recommend a forklift upgrade (especially if current radios are unlicensed and rogue) where you'll get a license, find a couple frequencies to use, and buy new radios and (hopefully) reprogram existing compatible radios to the new licensed frequencies to save a few dollars. Their sales model might be a monthly "subscription" per radio, or just hourly labor for programming and sales of the radio etc.

I know it's not what you were really hoping for, bringing it in house and becoming an expert in it, but without the foundational radio knowledge and some tools in place already, we can only guide you at the big-picture level here on the forums. Only other option is throwing out your general location and seeing if a member here is willing to come out and help, and possibly teach you along the way.

 

[dlwtrunked]

That would also be a violation of the Federal FERPA (1974) law, assuming we are referring to the United States and publicly funded schools.

U. S. FERPA protects *school records* only---nothing beyond that. Similarrly it is humorous how the U,.S. HIPAA law is misinterpreted. I once had management come down on me for telling people at work that a person out with appendicitis was doing fine--this was after they told me to tell all that he was doing fine. Again, it is the confidential records that are protected. Another person (who also had coincidentally appendicitis) was angry when he came back to work and found out management had not passed on his response to a get well card which told people why he was out and how he was doing. Laws are only good if people actually read and understood them.

 

[icom1020]

We just use initials , including staff to reference people on the radio. It really went into effect last year. Perhaps risk management stepped in.

 

[R8000]

I installed a 5 site Linked Capacity Plus system for a large school district several years ago. Oversold ? The customer asked for HT coverage in each school, and the ability to talk from school to school for admin and maint staff with a total of 21 talkgroups. The need for emergency all call in the event of a weather warning or other emergency was crucial. LCP fit this need perfectly. Customer already had a very nice fiber optic network in place between the schools. The system works better than they expected and very happy with it. Expensive ? Yes it was. However, it fit their needs and to this day still operating very well. They took advantage of trade in promotions and other grant style funding to help pay for it.

Do you need a trunking system ? Maybe not. This is where the expertise of a local shop comes in play. They can do RSSI coverage tests to ensure you get coverage that you want, do site walks and use this data to give you a quote for budget purposes. They even may be able to so a tied approach to build up a nice system over X years and budget cycles.

As already mentioned, you need the assistance of a reputable local two way radio shop. They will be there if there are problems in the future. You can also get input from neighboring school districts to see what they use, and what vendors they use and if the like them or not. Word of mouth goes a long way.

You can not design a radio system like this based off technical input from a hobbyist website. You need to do it right, and you need a good, local vendor to assist you. Good radio shops have a (real) engineer on staff that can design you a solution that fits your budget and needs.

Good luck.

 

[paulears]

With hindsight this would have been a great use for network radios. All schools have decent wifi coverage nowadays, so they could easily be linked, but schools never want to spend money.