SDS100, not ideal for VHF?

[threeofnine]

I listen to VHF channels 99% of the time. I use a Whistler WS1040 and it has been great with good reception/range. I've considered upgrading to an SDS100 but I've read a couple places that it actually has inferior reception when listening to VHF frequencies. Is this accurate?

 

[rgchristy]

I would look for an opinion and/or experience with someone close to you. I know that you're not supposed to cross-post, but it would help to ask in your state forum, for your particular region.

Bear in mind that results could vary from house to house, but I think you might get a better feel for VHF in your region.

 

[buddrousa]

I have good results with with VHF with my SDS100 BCD436HP BCD325P2 BCD160DN all sharing the same antenna with my TRX-1.

 

[trentbob]

I listen to a lot of VHF High. I get great reception on the SDS scanners. When the filters first came out and people used them improperly they would often apply a global filter that would improve perhaps one p25 system or specific conventional frequencies.

They didn't realize that Global filters were just to sample results quickly with the radio on using reception indicators and when you found a suitable filter other than default normal on something specific you wanted to improve, you return Global to normal and then apply the better filter to the specific system that you want to improve, you go to site settings and apply the new filter directly to the few sites you are using for that system.

To improve conventional items you apply the better filter to Department options of a group of conventional frequencies, you can't apply a filter directly to one channel. So you group Air Ops, rail, Marine or County Fire Systems together in their own Departments. I find that VHF High works well on default normal, Marine frequencies often benefit from wide normal.

What may have happened was when people just used global to improve a system or conventional object they were globally changing every item on the radio and applying the new filter to every object, this compromised reception on many objects that worked very well on default normal..

Now more people know that you don't use Global filters to improve just one system or object as it's going to compromise reception on every object that works well on normal.

Because people didn't understand how to properly use the radio, it got a reputation for bad reception on conventional objects.

Could be a possibility.

My TRX 1 has been in a drawer with no batteries in it for years, it has very low mileage as we went to p25 Phase 2 simulcast right after I got it and it didn't work for me but I'm not going to sell it. Especially with Whistler being bought in January and possibly ramping up again.

If I had to choose, I would say the SDS 100 has better VHF High reception than the trx1 but there are many factors that can affect that.

 

[TeeJayZee]

If you’d rather not deal with global filters and all that, just get an antenna long enough to "tickle" the moon’s belly—but even then, there’s a good chance it won’t tune in perfectly. lol. (joking)

I played around with the global filters on my SDS100, and it was a hassle, especially since I "drive" through multiple cities and counties. I just don’t have the time to figure out the best settings for different frequencies or groups. Plus, I’d rather not become roadkill while adjusting knobs on the go. (driving/making deliveries and etc.)

If you don’t have a ton of favorites, you could try enabling Normal Auto or Wide Auto in the Global Filters, but keep in mind that it will significantly slow down scanning if you have a large favorites list.

That said, it would’ve been really helpful if Uniden had included an on-screen indicator on the SDS100 to show which frequencies prefer certain settings (like Normal, Invert, Wide Normal, Wide Invert, or Off) when Auto is enabled. Maybe they can add that in a future firmware update!

Another idea is for those that have time on their side (like sitting at home playing with knobs all day) to share those settings in the RRDB -- especially for Simulcast frequencies, since this is the only radio series that can tune to those frequencies anyways, those global filter settings would be a tremendous help for others.

 

[EAFrizzle]

After two months with both of the SDS scanners, I'll have to say that the question you need to ask yourself isn't so much whether you listen to VHF-hi, but  how you listen to it. Are you listening to local stations or are you like me, a tropospheric enhancement junkie, constantly looking for the distant weak signals? If you're hunting weak signals, the SDS scanners will likely be disappointing. Its easy to compare scanners using NWS transmitters. No filter setting gives either of my SDS rigs better VHF performance than my older rigs or even my new 365crs and 125at. You don't need to adjust individual channel settings to determine VHF performance as a receiver.

My SDS scanners are amazing machines that excel at what they were designed to do, defeating simulcast distortion. If you have to beat simulcast, or need the other tools in the SDS, then your choice is pretty much made. If that's of lesser importance than VHF performance, then there are many new and used options that I think will give you a better VHF experience. If you need to go with a one-scanner setup, then the SDS series will do everything you need, just be aware that there are some compromises needed to have so much frequency and mode capability. If you're an average VHF listener, you'll love having an all-in-one scanning solution. If you decide you want better VHF weak-signal performance, just save a little extra and get a 365crs or 125at. You can find some really good deals on them now (snagged my 365crs for ~ $70.)

No matter which scanner you get, don't forget the antenna performance. Consider multi-band as well as monobanders, omni and directional. You think it seems a bit like a rabbit hole shopping for scanners? Just wait until the antenna bug bites you!

 

[trentbob]

The radio has a steep learning curve and it is going to be a period of adjustment. There are patterns now with the filters in regard to systems, many p25 Phase 2 systems respond well to wide invert. Auto filters significantly slow down scanning and no you don't know what filter did the job. It's not going to give you the best reception as it samples each filter, even if it's the wrong filter. You should apply the filter indicator to your display for the few systems and conventional objects you apply filters to.

I don't fiddle with filters all the time, once they're set, they are set. Again we're not using Global filters we are applying filters directly to the sites of systems and leaving Global on normal default. They are just a sampling aid.

I don't really need to use filters on UHF or VHF, normal filter which is global works fine. There is some geographical effects changing the need of a filter but pretty much a good portion of my County on the lower end respond to the same filter so there's no fiddling in the car, there really shouldn't be any fiddling at all once things are set up.

Many factors, including topography, geography, the type of system and the way it's configured affect what filter is needed, what works for you isn't going to work for me so putting it in the database what filter works for you isn't going to help the next guy.

As far as band openings the SDS scanners are great, I live on the water in CG sector Delaware Bay and monitor Channel 16, 22, 13, 81 and CG 121 and 409 digital. There are times I will receive Coast Guard sectors from quite a distance when the ducting God's allow it.

I've owned the SDS 100s since June 2018, the VHF high, UHF performance is excellent, I'm not compromising anything to get good simulcast decoding, aircraft, VHF and UHF works great, no need to carry a second radio just for VHF.

The original stock antenna is not the greatest so obviously an aftermarket antenna to meet your needs is a must.

 

[EAFrizzle]

If you're satisfied with the SDS VHF performance, great. But why is there so much pushback against anyone that complains about it? For many of us, the VHF performance of the SDS series leaves much to be desired, especially when you consider the price.

I have no idea what the weather and climate is like at your location. I do know that I just moved from the RF eating Big Thicket to the VHF heaven of DFW. With no tropo enhancement, I get stations ~50-65 miles away with a mag mount dual band on top of the building. When just a bit of inversion starts, 100-125 mile catches are regular. But the SDS scanners sit quietly until a closer station transmits. I wish it would detect them; I'd love to hear P25 VHF on DX.

Why are so many SDS user so quick to try and shut down any complaints about the performance? If a bit more honesty about performance was acceptable here, there might not be so many complaints. I bought an SDS100 because it was necessary for simulcast. Asked on various forums about the Civil and MilAir performance. "Best radio ever made! Picks up everything!" So I pulled the trigger on a 200. Well, they'll tune to most things, but picking them up is another story. Knowing what I do now, I would have just bought a few 15x scanners.

Put the SDS200 in a desktop HF rig sized case, give it absolute best reception on all bands and modes, and charge a kilobuck+ for it. I'll be the first to sign up.

 

[Ubbe]

If you have zero interference from other transmitters then any receiver design will work.

In VHF you could have a generally higher RF level from NOAA, pager transmitters and FM broadcasts than what you have at other frequency bands. Usually you have mostly analog systems in VHF band and you will notice any interference to the reception very easily by your ears. In other bands there's mostly digital systems and that will mask the issues in reception as you only listen to a voice from a decoded data signal.

I've measured the SDS100 using a communication analyzer and it performs about the same in all frequency bands but the internal spurious signals, like birdies, increase in number the lower you go in frequency.

SDS100 uses the same kind of receiver chip that you can find in many SDR dongles like the RTL-SDR, so if you are familiar with one of those then you know more about how the receiver performs. Uniden have a 10dB preamp in the scanner so it probably are 10dB worse at overload issues than a dongle but it also has bandpass filters, in VHF 118-137MHz and another 137-220MHz, that will improve performance compared to a dongle.

I where trying to listen to a digital system at 422MHz right now and it had a level of -95dBm and it would drop to -105dBm and sometimes close squelch and none of the filters helped, but enabling IFX to that frequency made the signal have a constant -95dB and it didn't matter what filter type I used. Of course none of my other scanners connected to the same splitter had any issues with that system.

/Ubbe

 

[buddrousa]

Answer to POST #8.
The push back is from users that know how or take the time to learn the scanner and set it up to work the best in their own listening area.
Those that complain just expect it to be plug and play out of the box. They either lack the skill or are not willing to invest the time.

 

[EAFrizzle]

Answer to POST #8.
The push back is from users that know how or take the time to learn the scanner and set it up to work the best in their own listening area.
Those that complain just expect it to be plug and play out of the box. They either lack the skill or are not willing to invest the time.

I've learned the scanner, I've set it up to work the best it can in this area. I have the skill and the time and have used both. So, what's the dang deal with everyone except Ubbe wanting to tell me how wrong I am? It's like criticism of the SDS series is taken as a personal insult.

If someone asks about the SDS VHF performance, I'm going to tell them my experience with both. If the SDS meets your standards for VHF performance, great; you get to have an all-in-one solution (and they truly are for the vast majority of users). However, they don't meet my standards for VHF reception. I have others to do that works and when I really want to tease out the weakest stations coming in, I fire up a dual-bander.

Should OP buy an SDS? Probably so. Trunking is coming everywhere, simulcast follows in its footsteps, might as well get ahead of the curve. But VHF conventional will hang around for quite a while in rural and remote areas. But it's disappointing to have a brand-new, top-shelf rig not pick up a reliable favorite station well, no matter what you try.

There's a reason that Uniden's 75, 125, 365, etc., still sell well, and it's not just the price point. They perform  very well at what they do, and tend to be highly recommended for VHF applications. You know a kid that's into airplanes? Buy her a 75.

Not sure of what OP's exact listening situation is (are home agencies going trunked, but surrounding areas staying put; air, rail, Marine or PS as main target; etc.) Maybe OP really needs the SDS right now, maybe they can save for the next iteration from Uniden (dare we hope from Whistler, too?) while doing some other upgrades now. Better antenna is always a good thing (unless you're close enough to a trunked sites to get -60dBm readings. The invert filters seem to help with that.)

Anyway, enjoy whatever you get!

 

[dmfalk]

I've learned the scanner, I've set it up to work the best it can in this area. I have the skill and the time and have used both. So, what's the dang deal with everyone except Ubbe wanting to tell me how wrong I am? It's like criticism of the SDS series is taken as a personal insult.

Because, for the most part, it's simply not our experience.

Perhaps the single weakest point with the SDS100 is the antenna. Heck, I didn't even get that in my bundle- The seller sent two replacement antennas, which were fair, but I tried one of two Comet W100RXs I had for my HomePatrol 2, and BANG! Brilliant reception!

This, of course, after the experience with the HP-2 and its original antenna, compared to any of a number of replacement antennas I tried, settling on the Comet W100RX..... The original was utter crap!

Seriously, regardless of receiver, invest in an antenna! There's some really good ones out there for $30-$40, and they'll do a better job than any stock antenna.

With a good antenna, the SDS100 is a solid banger of a scanner.

(The extra advantage of the Comet W100RX is the double hinge which lets the antenna fold back neatly onto the radio, without problems in storing, but that's that antenna..... Others swear by Remtronics and Diamond antennas, just as equally.)

 

[W8WCA]

Well for my location: My SDS100 is no where near as good as my little Icom R6 at VHF.
I have run them with same frequencies and just whip antenna's and the R6 catches more than the SDS100 does
Using Diamond Antenna Tri-Band HT Antennas SRH320A on both

 

[trentbob]

I've learned the scanner, I've set it up to work the best it can in this area. I have the skill and the time and have used both. So, what's the dang deal with everyone except Ubbe wanting to tell me how wrong I am? It's like criticism of the SDS series is taken as a personal insult.

If someone asks about the SDS VHF performance, I'm going to tell them my experience with both. If the SDS meets your standards for VHF performance, great; you get to have an all-in-one solution (and they truly are for the vast majority of users). However, they don't meet my standards for VHF reception. I have others to do that works and when I really want to tease out the weakest stations coming in, I fire up a dual-bander.

Should OP buy an SDS? Probably so. Trunking is coming everywhere, simulcast follows in its footsteps, might as well get ahead of the curve. But VHF conventional will hang around for quite a while in rural and remote areas. But it's disappointing to have a brand-new, top-shelf rig not pick up a reliable favorite station well, no matter what you try.

There's a reason that Uniden's 75, 125, 365, etc., still sell well, and it's not just the price point. They perform  very well at what they do, and tend to be highly recommended for VHF applications. You know a kid that's into airplanes? Buy her a 75.

Not sure of what OP's exact listening situation is (are home agencies going trunked, but surrounding areas staying put; air, rail, Marine or PS as main target; etc.) Maybe OP really needs the SDS right now, maybe they can save for the next iteration from Uniden (dare we hope from Whistler, too?) while doing some other upgrades now. Better antenna is always a good thing (unless you're close enough to a trunked sites to get -60dBm readings. The invert filters seem to help with that.)

Anyway, enjoy whatever you get!

Being someone who is very experienced with the radio and I know you've only had yours a few months I just have a few questions that maybe will help your situation.

When you apply wide invert to a system are you using global filter or applying the filter to the few sites that you are listening to on that system? If you're using Global filter you are applying the wide invert to all objects on the radio including VHF high frequencies and that will crush them.

When you set it up, I'm sure you updated your firmware on Sentinel but did you enable all service types? By default they are not all enabled unless you go in and do it.

When you listen to a simulcast system and scan VHF high at the same time do you listen to more than one system at a time? Do you limit the number of sites you listen to to just a few that you need or do you roll through a lot of sites? Many times conventional items will be missed because the radio is just scanning too much and doesn't have time to roll around and get all transmissions. The old saying is, the more you scan the less you hear.

As I and others have mentioned the original antenna supplied with the radio is terrible, I assume that you have attached a proper antenna that has wide coverage especially good on VHF High, UHF and 7-800 MHz.

Have you made favorites lists and are you using quick keys giving you more control over the radio, you always want to be sure that you are not scanning objects on a system on two separate favorites list, again rolling through so much can cause missed transmissions as the transmission is over before the scanner rolls around to that frequency again.

Just a few ideas.

For the gentleman who's comparing the R6 to an SDS 100 you are comparing apples to bowling balls.. your R6 doesn't trunk track, Superior receiver but..

 

[EAFrizzle]

Global wide invert is the only setting that lets me recieve any weather station on either. Most of the time I have the filter off and have them both locked on one system searching for new TGs. Other machines have more than enough traffic for edification and entertainment.

You mentioned the excellent UHF performance, and that has definitely been my experience as well. We have a UHF DMR system in the area, and even though my RSSI is -110 and lower & errors from ~10-50, the audio is always perfect. Same with analog. Almost makes me want to listen to GMRS (neither the service nor the trunked system). I miss the old UHF blowtorches that Houston PD used to run.

 

[trentbob]

Global wide invert is the only setting that lets me recieve any weather station on either. Most of the time I have the filter off and have them both locked on one system searching for new TGs. Other machines have more than enough traffic for edification and entertainment.

You mentioned the excellent UHF performance, and that has definitely been my experience as well. We have a UHF DMR system in the area, and even though my RSSI is -110 and lower & errors from ~10-50, the audio is always perfect. Same with analog. Almost makes me want to listen to GMRS (neither the service nor the trunked system). I miss the old UHF blowtorches that Houston PD used to run.

Okay so you find it that when you apply wide invert it allows you to hear weather and the only filter control you use is global so you do know when Global wide invert is on you are going to lose any VHF High except obviously the weather. If I might suggest, go to weather options hold on each weather frequency and hit function 7 this will apply IFX to that frequency, you might find that improves things and you no longer need to apply global wide invert. You should leave Global alone and that will apply normal filter to all objects, they call it normal for a reason and that's why it is default, I hope you are not going in and changing Global filter to no filter at all, that will also possibly compromise your VHF High reception.

When you make changes on the keyboard, no matter what, as soon as you hook up to Sentinel you need to read your card first thing before doing anything else so as to make your keyboard changes permanent.

 

[EAFrizzle]

I have the filter off because i no longer use them for VHF. They look for unknown TGs on UHF and 7/8 P25 and DMR. I lock on a site, avoid the busy TGs, and let it record. Very convenient.

 

[trentbob]

I have the filter off because i no longer use them for VHF. They look for unknown TGs on UHF and 7/8 P25 and DMR. I lock on a site, avoid the busy TGs, and let it record. Very convenient.

Didn't quite get that, you have gone into Global filters and changed the choice from normal to no filter at all?, is that what you're saying or are you saying you're just leaving Global filter alone which means normal filter is applied to every object on the radio. That's how you want it, if you have removed all filters from Global and made the choice of no filter at all that could very well explain why you're not getting VHF high well.

What searches for UHF and DMR? Filters don't search. I'm a little confused now. Are you by chance using zip code scanning or do you have established, numbered, named favorites list?

 

[EAFrizzle]

"They" being the SDS scanners. Once locked onto a site from a list or even the database, I put it into ID search, start locking out known TGs, and start recording. No filtering at all seems to work best for me on a single site. UHF and 700/800 only as I no longer use VHF on the SDS, I have options available that I prefer. That's a luxury that not every new SDS owner has.

 

[trentbob]

Okie dokie, so you're using zip code database search and site hold and no filter whatsoever. Whatever floats your boat.

I was trying to help you to achieve good VHF High reception which is a characteristic of the radio but you're going down your own road.

Good luck.