Senior Center: We have issues!

[wrwoolley]

I'm an administrator of a municipal senior center. We have a fleet of six vans for transporting elderly folks. Each van is equipped with two-way radios. We also have one base unit and a repeater. The radios are all either: Kenwood TK862HG-1; Kenwood TK862G; Vertex FTL-7011; or Standard GX3000. I've been told that to comply with the FCC's upcoming narrowband transition, all our radios would have to be converted to digital. I was also told that some radios can be reprogrammed for that reason, while others can't and will have to be replaced. I can't afford to make a bad, uninformed decision here so I'm trying to gain as much knowledge as I can (for a radio rookie). Is there any way to find out if any or all of the radios listed above can be reprogrammed? Or will some or all of them have to be replaced? Any help would be greatly appreciated! -- Bill

 

[ramal121]

The narrowbanding requirement coming up does not have anything to do with converting to digital. It only cuts your channel in half. Your radios will only need to be adjusted to fit into the narrower channel. They can still be used analog.

Luckily, this is done by just reprogramming the radios. The Kenwoods and Vertex can do this. The Standard GX3000 is a marine radio. Not sure why you have this, but marine radios have no narrowband requirement.

The only other thing to do is update your FCC license. Doesn't look like you have anything that needs to be replaced.

 

[N4DES]

The narrowbanding requirement coming up does not have anything to do with converting to digital. It only cuts your channel in half. Your radios will only need to be adjusted to fit into the narrower channel. They can still be used analog.

Luckily, this is done by just reprogramming the radios. The Kenwoods and Vertex can do this. The Standard GX3000 is a marine radio. Not sure why you have this, but marine radios have no narrowband requirement.

The only other thing to do is update your FCC license. Doesn't look like you have anything that needs to be replaced.

The GX3000 is not a marine radio. It is a Part 90 radio but is not capable of narrowband so it will have to be replaced.

The OP didn't post what brand and model his repeater is. If it is of an older vintage it will have to be replaced as well and the highest cost device to replace. If he does have to replace the repeater it may be cost effective for him to upgrade everythingto a newer digital system, such as Mototurbo MOTOTRBO that can give you features like GPS because a lot of manufacturers/vendors are offering nice rebates right now.

Also don't forget that you also have to update your FCC license to reflect narrowband emission designator or it will be cancelled on 1/1/2013. Contact your frequency coordinator for assistance.

 

[N0YFE]

I'm an administrator of a municipal senior center. We have a fleet of six vans for transporting elderly folks. Each van is equipped with two-way radios. We also have one base unit and a repeater. The radios are all either: Kenwood TK862HG-1; Kenwood TK862G; Vertex FTL-7011; or Standard GX3000. I've been told that to comply with the FCC's upcoming narrowband transition, all our radios would have to be converted to digital. I was also told that some radios can be reprogrammed for that reason, while others can't and will have to be replaced. I can't afford to make a bad, uninformed decision here so I'm trying to gain as much knowledge as I can (for a radio rookie). Is there any way to find out if any or all of the radios listed above can be reprogrammed? Or will some or all of them have to be replaced? Any help would be greatly appreciated! -- Bill

I would also recommend to contact your City Administrator because if they have any other radio services they are also going to have to go though the same process and it may be cheaper to use one vedor for all the radio services and they may also be the license holder for your radio frequency.

 

[wrwoolley]

Thanks!

I very much appreciate the responses to my original posting. Because of my previous ignorance -- yes, I'll admit to ignorance -- I felt like an easy mark to be frightened by a salesperson into making purchases I don't really need. One guy insisted we were going to have to comply with new FCC rules that would REQUIRE digital radios. Not true, apparently. But clearly, I need to pursue a renewal of our FCC license. Just as clearly, from your replies, I don't need to replace all our radios, only the Standard GX3000s. The point about the repeater was also well taken: I have an appointment later this week to get on the roof of a nearby hospital, where the repeater resides, to rustle up that information. I'll keep my fingers crossed that I won't have to replace it. Anyway, this forum has been great so far. I'm sure I'll be back before long, on this issue.

 

[wrwoolley]

Repeater question

OK, I finally made it to the hospital roof and found the Senior center's repeater. It's a Kenwood TKR-820. Will I be able to have it reprogrammed to comply with the new FCC narrowbanding requirement? Or am I looking at the expense of purchasing a new repeater?

 

[ramal121]

The TKR-820 dates back a ways. It is not programmable to narrow band. It could be done with parts replacement and retuning. My feeling in this is to replace the repeater with a more up to date unit.

Luckily, the duplexer and antenna do not need to be replaced. A new TKR-850 repeater should be in the $1500 dollar range.

 

[jim202]

Why do people always try to tell us to convert to digital? They must have a part interest in Motorola.

Jim

The GX3000 is not a marine radio. It is a Part 90 radio but is not capable of narrowband so it will have to be replaced.

The OP didn't post what brand and model his repeater is. If it is of an older vintage it will have to be replaced as well and the highest cost device to replace. If he does have to replace the repeater it may be cost effective for him to upgrade everythingto a newer digital system, such as Mototurbo MOTOTRBO that can give you features like GPS because a lot of manufacturers/vendors are offering nice rebates right now.

Also don't forget that you also have to update your FCC license to reflect narrowband emission designator or it will be cancelled on 1/1/2013. Contact your frequency coordinator for assistance.

 

[N4DES]

Why do people always try to tell us to convert to digital? They must have a part interest in Motorola.

Jim

Beacuse they can get additional talk-paths, mangement and user features than with just using analog. There is nothing wrong with the reccomendation.

 

[Thunderknight]

And now given the new FCC rules announced this week, frequency coordination is not required to narrowband your license. Licenses can self-update in the ULS. Effective 30 days after it's published in the Federal Register.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-10-36A1.pdf

 

[Thunderknight]

Beacuse they can get additional talk-paths, mangement and user features than with just using analog. There is nothing wrong with the reccomendation.

There is a difference between encouraging someone to switch to digital for the features and incorrectly telling them that the FCC is mandating it.

If money is tight, narrow banding the existing channel is the cheapest solution. I don't deny that digital provides more features...but it costs more. The user needs to do a cost-benefit analysis, hopefully with the help of an honest vendor.

 

[SCPD]

New vendor

Regardless of what you plan to do, get a new radio vendor. Don't use the one that knows they lied to you when they said you need to go digital. That shows their lack of integrity right off the bat. There is probably a half dozen Kenwood dealers an hour or closer to you that would be happy to sell you radios and a repeater. List the city and state you are in, and I'll find 'em for you.

No one should think they are married to the vendor who sold them their first radio. Anyone can re-program and sell you radios that you have a license for. It don't need to be reprogrammed by the vendor that sold it to you. And anyone can move a radio from an old van to a new van for you.

If you were spending big money on a major improvement where you work, would you go with the first quote?

 

[N_Jay]

Why do people always try to tell us to convert to digital? They must have a part interest in Motorola.

Or Icom, or Kenwood, or . . . .

 

[ai8o]

Senior Citizen vans

I'm an administrator of a municipal senior center. We have a fleet of six vans for transporting elderly folks. Each van is equipped with two-way radios. We also have one base unit and a repeater. The radios are all either: Kenwood TK862HG-1; Kenwood TK862G; Vertex FTL-7011; or Standard GX3000. I've been told that to comply with the FCC's upcoming narrowband transition, all our radios would have to be converted to digital. I was also told that some radios can be reprogrammed for that reason, while others can't and will have to be replaced. I can't afford to make a bad, uninformed decision here so I'm trying to gain as much knowledge as I can (for a radio rookie). Is there any way to find out if any or all of the radios listed above can be reprogrammed? Or will some or all of them have to be replaced? Any help would be greatly appreciated! -- Bill

There are two alternatives here.

Talk to your cities Comm Director, probably they are at the city or county 911 center.


They may have some equipment that the PD or some other city agency is abandoning do to replacement cycle issues. In my area many of the school buses have hand me down equipment from the Sheriff's Office.

OR;

And this is the better option.
.
See if your city or county is converting or already has converted to 800 Mhz or Digital or both.
In this case all you would have to do is request one or more talkgroups in a city or regional system.
This would alleviate you from having to maintaining a repeater.
The city would maintain the system backbone; all you would have to do is install the mobiles in the vans. Also you would NOT have to independently contract for equipment maintenance.
The cities radio shop or contractor would do the maintenance.

 

[jeatock]

Or Icom, or Kenwood, or . . . .

... or Ritron, or Daniels or General Dynamics, et al.

Number of manufacturers supporting the open NXDN digital protocol (one voice per 6.25 path of spectrum without fixed infrastructure overhead): 10+, with more anticipated.

Number of manufacturers supporting the proprietary TRBO digital protocol (one voice per 6.25 path ONLY IF there is fixed infrastructure to manage the system): Exactly one, with no more to be available until their copyright runs out in about 20 years.

I haven't been able to keep a wife that long; I'd be really scared to get married to one radio manufacturer for the whole life of a system.

Stick with analog unless someone can show you in black and white that it is a good, long term move with sound financial or operational advantages to do something different.

And always get three bids.

 

[wwhitby]

Why do people always try to tell us to convert to digital? They must have a part interest in Motorola.

Jim

Because salespeople get a commission from the sales they make, and digital radios cost more than analog radios.

Warren

 

[wwhitby]

... Number of manufacturers supporting the proprietary TRBO digital protocol (one voice per 6.25 path ONLY IF there is fixed infrastructure to manage the system): Exactly one, with no more to be available until their copyright runs out in about 20 years.

Vertex has signed up to Making MOTOTRBO protocol radios now.

Personally, I wonder what will happen to MOTOTRBO when Motorola corporate loses interest.....

Stick with analog unless someone can show you in black and white that it is a good, long term move with sound financial or operational advantages to do something different.

Good advice! There is nothing wrong with analog.

Warren

 

[WA4MJF]

Will this new mandate be handled like the last one (36F3 to 16F3)? We along with many other depts just had the TX deviation set back and lived with low audio recovery in the Rx until we bought some Mastr Pros and Execs.

 

[AlanTilles]

We have put together a website where we try to knock down all of those myths (i.e. "must go digital"). You can take a look here: NarrowbandingLaw. The site is sponsored by several manufacturers, consulting engineers and trade associations, and so I tried to make it as neutral as possible. We have a link there to an APCO article written by a gentlemen who tried to list what equipment is narrowband capable. You can also check the FCC's database for that info. Also, you'll see there that I'm travelling around the country (just got back from Arkansas, going to New Hampshire today) to give narrowbanding talks, and do a lot of "mythbusting."

With regard to the post about no longer requiring frequency coordination, a couple of notes: (1) ULS hasn't been updated yet to allow that (we'll probably see an announcement when it is); and (2) that would only apply if you're going from wideband analog to narrowband analog. If you migrate to digital (in any flavor), that would need frequency coordination.

With regard to the gentleman's question about setting the TX deviation back, this may violate the unit's type acceptance. You'll see on our website where the FCC answered that question.

Hope that this helps!

Alan S. Tilles, Esq.
Chairman, Telecommunications Department

atilles@shulmanrogers.com | T 301.231.0930 | F 301.230.2891

SHULMAN, ROGERS, GANDAL, PORDY & ECKER, P.A.
12505 PARK POTOMAC AVENUE, 6TH FLOOR, POTOMAC, MD 20854

 

[Baylink]

Why do people always try to tell us to convert to digital? They must have a part interest in Motorola.

Hanlon's Razor seems on point, here:

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidty.

Where, by "malice", I mean "greed", and by "stupidity", I mean "ignorance".