Shortwave Antenna Question - End Fedz SWL

[tilt404]

Hello, I hope I'm posting this in the right place. I bought a End Fedz shortwave antenna recently (EF-SWL) Par Electronics EF-SWL End Fed Dipole SWL Antenna. Par EF-SWL.

I had a few questions about it. First I was wondering if anyone else is using this in a apartment? This is my case and I'm having trouble picking or finding a mounting location. It's 45 feet long and non of the recommendations in the sheet for it work for my balcony. They listed horizontal, sloper, inverted L and vertical.

I started by running it around the balcony railing from the bottom on one end, along the bottom of the railing to the other end, the up to the top of the railing, across to the other end and then into the box where it connects to my LMR400 with a pl-259.

I have two other antennas on the railing though, a diamond discone and a MFJ-1522 dual band 2m/70cm repeater antenna. They are mounted to a metal mast but that touches the railing also. So I thought I would mount it a bit differently, and ran it from the floor of the balcony up to the ceiling overhang, across to the other side and down to the floor again for a inverted U.

I'm still not sure what will work better though. Once night falls I will start to scan a bit and see. I'm using a Yaesu FT-897D and a MFJ-949E antenna tuner. The End Fedz is fed with LMR400 from the tuner to the antenna. I was using a single 20m ham stick before, but it's been so hard to find 40m and 80m ham sticks here. So I thought maybe this antenna would help me more in the 1khz - 14mhz where I like to listen for shortwave.

I was mainly wondering if anyone else is using the same antenna on a balcony and how they have it mounted. Thanks.

 

[k9rzz]

Keep it away from metal and in the clear as best you can.

 

[tilt404]

Thank you, That rules out attaching it to the railing which is aluminum. Where it is now it's hanging in the free air, just supported by some nylon zip ties.

 

[ridgescan]

I just caught your thread tilt-you need 2 things for that antenna to do anything meaningful (by the way it's a killer SWL antenna) you need a good ground and you really have to let it spread out. They give you some options to work with but beyond those, you'll render it useless. Can't ya get it to the roof of that building? I am in an apt too and I run 100' and two discones. If you make the install unobtrusive and tidy, they usually won't say a thing...most folks are oblivious to antennas unless they are so outwardly vulgar you can't help but notice
or you could run it out from the balcony to a pole or tree? Long as you are WAY clear of powerlines (including if it breaks free in a bad storm-will it still clear powerlines) doesn't need to be laser-straight-it can slope down or up as well give us some idea what you have out there to work with.

 

[ka3jjz]

I would start by taking the tuner out of the line between your 897 and the antenna. The transformer on the Par will smooth out any impedance fluctuations, and help keep the noise out. You might want to try connecting the railing with a star washer/nut combination using some very thin clear speaker wire (would be darn near invisible) thru the tuner, and the Par on the built in switch and see which works better between the two. Sometimes one is likely to work better than the other, for a variety of reasons.

To start, put the PAR on the 'bypass tuner' part of the switch, then the railing with the tuner inline. You could also jumper the PAR directly to the 897 to see if your tuner is adding/subtracting anything. I wouldn't hesitate to at least try to email LNR and see if he has any other suggestions.

The PAR's not built to go below 1 mhz or so, so I really wouldn't expect it to work well on the MW band. But you won't lose anything by trying it - just remember, disable the transmitter when you are fooling around with this antenna

Lots of possibilities here...best regards..Mike

[edit] I almost forgot - when using the railing, be sure to keep the 4:1 balun in line - or not - try it either way and see which way works better.

 

[tilt404]

Thank you for your reply,

I'm on the top (10th) floor of a apartment, but getting on the roof is a no go. I've been doing ok with the current set up. Getting the most distant places from where I am, (Windsor Ontario Canada), and I get New Zealand and Australia every night. Every other continent except Japan so far and Hawaii. It's been going up one wall from just above the floor when I feed it from the end with LMR400. It goes about 8 feet up the balcony sidewall, across the top 18 feet or so and down 8' the other wall, all suspended by zip ties, not in contact with any metal. I had to coil up the excess at the end though.

Tonight I ran the left over length across almost to the other side, so it's running in a big loop, up one wall, across the top, down the other wall and across the bottom, not touching any wall or surface just suspended by the zip ties held in slight tension. So I will see how it works tonight. I could try to stretch it out in a straight line, but that would mean removing window panes and screens in the other room and me hanging out the window 100 feet up. Not something I'm looking forward to. There's no trees or power lines nearby at this height of below.

Glad to hear it can slope a bit up or down since that will be the case if I take the change to run it straight tomorrow.

I just caught your thread tilt-you need 2 things for that antenna to do anything meaningful (by the way it's a killer SWL antenna) you need a good ground and you really have to let it spread out. They give you some options to work with but beyond those, you'll render it useless. Can't ya get it to the roof of that building? I am in an apt too and I run 100' and two discones. If you make the install unobtrusive and tidy, they usually won't say a thing...most folks are oblivious to antennas unless they are so outwardly vulgar you can't help but notice
or you could run it out from the balcony to a pole or tree? Long as you are WAY clear of powerlines (including if it breaks free in a bad storm-will it still clear powerlines) doesn't need to be laser-straight-it can slope down or up as well give us some idea what you have out there to work with.

 

[tilt404]

Thank you the info Mike. It was good to hear I could remove it from my tuner. I tried to bypass it and seemed to make no difference, so I fed the LMR from the end fedz into my Yaesu ft-897d directly now, instead of through the tuner.

From there I'm a bit confused by what you wrote though. Mainly with the ground wire to the railing and my antenna tuner. It would be about a 30 foot run. I have a discone and MFJ-1522 dual band uhf/vhf mounted to the railing also. I'll see how things work tonight since I changed around the length a bit, which I mentioned in the answer above. So far it's been working really well. But I will keep experimenting.

I would start by taking the tuner out of the line between your 897 and the antenna. The transformer on the Par will smooth out any impedance fluctuations, and help keep the noise out. You might want to try connecting the railing with a star washer/nut combination using some very thin clear speaker wire (would be darn near invisible) thru the tuner, and the Par on the built in switch and see which works better between the two. Sometimes one is likely to work better than the other, for a variety of reasons.

To start, put the PAR on the 'bypass tuner' part of the switch, then the railing with the tuner inline. You could also jumper the PAR directly to the 897 to see if your tuner is adding/subtracting anything. I wouldn't hesitate to at least try to email LNR and see if he has any other suggestions.

The PAR's not built to go below 1 mhz or so, so I really wouldn't expect it to work well on the MW band. But you won't lose anything by trying it - just remember, disable the transmitter when you are fooling around with this antenna

Lots of possibilities here...best regards..Mike

[edit] I almost forgot - when using the railing, be sure to keep the 4:1 balun in line - or not - try it either way and see which way works better.

 

[tilt404]

I didn't realize I can insert images here too so will try to insert a couple to show how it's installed. Hopefully you can see in the images how it's run. At the far end though I un-coiled the remaining wire I had and it's running back toward the start point now. Just trying that out tonight to see how it work.

 

[ka3jjz]

I didn't write much of anything about a 30 foot 'ground wire'. What I was suggesting was a way to get a 2nd antenna on HF without much effort. If you ran a wire from the tuner (with the 4:1 balun engaged) to the aluminum railing (you would need to make a solid connection to it - a screw and star washer would be a start...) you would essentially be tuning the length of the wire plus the railing, for as long as the railing has some joints that were reasonably electrically solid and continuous (no breaks).

This is based on a old ham trick of loading whatever you can :.>> You may find that the railing/balun works better than the PAR on some signals, the reverse on others. Having more than one antenna available to you increases your flexibility in hearing something. Many top DXers have more than one antenna (sometimes different types of antennas) for exactly this reason.

Being up on a 10th floor, a 30 foot ground would be very inefficient. Insofar as safety is concerned, make sure you disconnect EVERYTHING (antennas and power supplies) when a thunderstorm is nearby. I think you would agree that having to reconnect everything is far preferable than having to replace something...

best regards..Mike

 

[tilt404]

Thanks for clearing things up Mike,

I get what you're saying now and that would be great to get more use out of my MFJ-949E antenna tuner. I'll think about trying that out once I sort out this end fedz wire.

Even with a slight chance of rain here I do disconnect everything inside from the 3 LMR400 feeds lines, and disconnect from all power sources. I've heard too many hams talking about getting hit by lightning lately so I'm always cautious. Even if I'm going out I do the same in case of a storm while I'm out.

: )

I didn't write much of anything about a 30 foot 'ground wire'. What I was suggesting was a way to get a 2nd antenna on HF without much effort. If you ran a wire from the tuner (with the 4:1 balun engaged) to the aluminum railing (you would need to make a solid connection to it - a screw and star washer would be a start...) you would essentially be tuning the length of the wire plus the railing, for as long as the railing has some joints that were reasonably electrically solid and continuous (no breaks).

This is based on a old ham trick of loading whatever you can :.>> You may find that the railing/balun works better than the PAR on some signals, the reverse on others. Having more than one antenna available to you increases your flexibility in hearing something. Many top DXers have more than one antenna (sometimes different types of antennas) for exactly this reason.

Being up on a 10th floor, a 30 foot ground would be very inefficient. Insofar as safety is concerned, make sure you disconnect EVERYTHING (antennas and power supplies) when a thunderstorm is nearby. I think you would agree that having to reconnect everything is far preferable than having to replace something...

best regards..Mike

 

[ridgescan]

Thank you for your reply,

I'm on the top (10th) floor of a apartment, but getting on the roof is a no go. I've been doing ok with the current set up. Getting the most distant places from where I am, (Windsor Ontario Canada), and I get New Zealand and Australia every night. Every other continent except Japan so far and Hawaii. It's been going up one wall from just above the floor when I feed it from the end with LMR400. It goes about 8 feet up the balcony sidewall, across the top 18 feet or so and down 8' the other wall, all suspended by zip ties, not in contact with any metal. I had to coil up the excess at the end though.

Tonight I ran the left over length across almost to the other side, so it's running in a big loop, up one wall, across the top, down the other wall and across the bottom, not touching any wall or surface just suspended by the zip ties held in slight tension. So I will see how it works tonight. I could try to stretch it out in a straight line, but that would mean removing window panes and screens in the other room and me hanging out the window 100 feet up. Not something I'm looking forward to. There's no trees or power lines nearby at this height of below.

Glad to hear it can slope a bit up or down since that will be the case if I take the change to run it straight tomorrow.

Hey it sounds like that PAR is doing a fine job-even set up the way you have it-still a nice performer I would be happy with that performance-it sounds as potent as mine is out here in the open!

 

[ka3jjz]

You might also consider running a wire from your tuner, around the perimeter of the porch, around the railing, and then back to the tuner, making sure you are using the balun as well. You actually might turn out to have more wire there than the 45 foot or so the PAR gives you. Make it very thin speaker wire and at your height, it's for all practical purposes invisible. The height you have really is a big plus - you should put it to good use

best regards..Mike

 

[k9rzz]

That railing looks like metal. Stay away! It might kill everything.

 

[ka3jjz]

Yes it might cause the PAR some problems. But you might still be able to use it as an antenna, or make it part of one. Hams have been doing things like that for years. If the OT is a ham, with a little work it could be a transmit antenna, not just a receive. And 10 floors up - you can't beat the height advantage...best regards..Mike

 

[mtnmadman]

I think i want a PAR!!

 

[SCPD]

Nice antenna setup there Tilt. I tried to do that in a previous apartment years ago and was scolded for putting up something "ugly."

I wasn't even given a chance to take it down -- the "owner" of the apartment building did it for me. He claimed it looked "ugly" and so he had their maintenance guy jump to my deck (from the roof) and take them down.

Needless to say, I wasn't happy that he went into my unit to take it down without my permission. I gave my moving notice that week to the apartment manager.

I never got a chance to yell at the owner directly so the apartment manager took the brunt of my anger.

I seriously considered legal action but there was a clause in the rental agreement that essentially gave them reason to do anything they want (inside or outside) on the property if they felt it was in the best interest of "safety."

After moving a few more times since then, I have noticed that rental agreements are specifically stating whether or not they allow any "antennas" on the outside deck -- dishes or otherwise.

A house with property is defintely the way to go.

 

[k9rzz]

How about a fishing pole loaded with wire instead of line, then lower it down at night with a weight and off to the side so it's not in front of any windows? Finish listening and wind 'er back up, take it inside! 10 stories up? Make a **** of a vertical.

 

[tilt404]

The railing is aluminum but the wire was far from it. I moved the End Fedz tonight though taking a chance. Beyond the length of my balcony about 20 more feet are the windows for my living room, so I used a 8 foot ham stick to extend the end of the End Fedz to each window and then attached the isolator at the end. So now it's running almost in a straight line for about 40 feet and all I can say is Wow! So much was coming in tonight. Even down into long wave I was picking up a station on 261khz. Almost at the lower limit of my Yaesu FT-897D which stops at 100khz. I was hearing quite a few stations down there. Even at 160m the noise was so low. No one was talking there, but heard them on 80m LSB fine even 60m USB which I never heard a soul talking on before. All without a tuner just feeding the End Fedz SWL antenna into my LMR400, right into the back of my Yaesu. So I will be leaving it in this position from now on.

In the photo you can kind of see the far end of the End Fedz going out to the far window, 100 feet up. Then it runs all the way back to the far end of the balcony, not touching metal anywhere along the way.

That railing looks like metal. Stay away! It might kill everything.

 

[tilt404]

That sounds really interesting, but with the metal railings here, the ring with a lot of noise if something hits them. I don't want to become a pest, so I'm happy with what I have set up now. : )

How about a fishing pole loaded with wire instead of line, then lower it down at night with a weight and off to the side so it's not in front of any windows? Finish listening and wind 'er back up, take it inside! 10 stories up? Make a **** of a vertical.

 

[tilt404]

I'm still not sure of the antenna situation here, but I see other people with sat. dishes on their railings so I figured I might was well put my own antennas up. If they tell me to take them down I'll just get more creative. Sorry to hear about your experience though. If someone jumped off the roof here onto my balcony I think they would die, possibly. But I'm in good standing with the manager here, been living here since 1993. So I'm sure she will be kind and let me know if and when she feels I'm out of line.

I do envy people with homes and property though. So much space would be nice.

Nice antenna setup there Tilt. I tried to do that in a previous apartment years ago and was scolded for putting up something "ugly."

I wasn't even given a chance to take it down -- the "owner" of the apartment building did it for me. He claimed it looked "ugly" and so he had their maintenance guy jump to my deck (from the roof) and take them down.

Needless to say, I wasn't happy that he went into my unit to take it down without my permission. I gave my moving notice that week to the apartment manager.

I never got a chance to yell at the owner directly so the apartment manager took the brunt of my anger.

I seriously considered legal action but there was a clause in the rental agreement that essentially gave them reason to do anything they want (inside or outside) on the property if they felt it was in the best interest of "safety."

After moving a few more times since then, I have noticed that rental agreements are specifically stating whether or not they allow any "antennas" on the outside deck -- dishes or otherwise.

A house with property is defintely the way to go.