Base Antenna Basics...

[niceguy71]

According to my buddy 30 miles north of me, no noticeable change in received signal on his end. On LSB with the Sirio i was giving him 3-5 s-units, and i still give him the same with both mobile antennas. Radios used are a Radioddity QT40 (garage) and a Retevis HS4 (house). Both radios do about 40 watts.


Quite the opposite. The mobile antennas make my radio “un-deaf” due to their lower noise floor. I can hear weak (distant) local stations on the mobile antennas that i can't hear on the base antennas. Thus it means i can also talk to them since i know they are out there to talk to. Cant talk to people if you cant hear them to begin with right? Again, skip is NOT a problem. I’ve talked all over the world on mobile antennas used as base antennas. For the last 20 years i had been using a little wil mag mount on a metal garage roof. It finally gave up the ghost after 2 decades of abuse.

Again, in 35 years of using radios, this is MY personal experience. You guys don't have to agree. I know what works for ME, and base antennas aren’t it. Doesn’t matter my location, height, coax, ground, etc. I’ve tried it all and wasted loads of money trying to knock out the base antenna noise floor issues with no success.

Here is a video where a guy compares a 102 vs an A99. Notice the RX is damn near identical, but pay attention to the noise floor when he switches back and forth between key ups. The A99 has a S3 noise floor, the 102 has a S2 noise floor. For me that difference is huge since all my locals are 30+ miles away from me and get buried in a S3-S5 noise floor..

Interesting video... I enjoy watching a YouTuber named Mower Junkie.. he had a 102 whip on his garage for a long time and talked all over the country and he loved that set up... so I guess it really works

 

[niceguy71]

this is what I did... I may have everything wrong???? but I think it came out great and works fantastic..... been just over a year so I can give you prices for everything.

jcrmadden I think this post got a little high jacked....​

take a look at my install and I can give you some pricing.... and see if this is something you could make work at your house.

I love having a base... nice to do range tests .. talk local 20 to 30 miles away on AM.... and the height lets me do Skip on LSB all over the world... just the other day I had a guy over giving me an estimate and he said what's all this... I said just a Cb... he say's I had a CB in the 80's ... I said not like todays radios.... I walked over and said I can talk to other countries pretty easily I then turned it on cranked up the power ( I normally never go past 30 watts) and asked if anyone could hear me.... secretly hoping for a long distance contact... and I got a guy in Scotland..( I was jumping up and down inside but played it like it was nothing ) I thanked him for the reply and shut off the radio.... the guy that was over giving me an estimate stood there in amazement.

 

[WSAC829]

I think the Base Station antenna's are getting a lot of noise because they pick up more than the mobile antennas... if you turn your RF Gain down till you get a S1 it would work like your mobile antenna

More noise. Correct. Turning the RF gain down wont help hear the stations buried below the noise floor. All that will do is make your radio even more deaf and only receive strong transmissions. My problem was not hearing the guys out in the weeds because the base antennas noise floors were stronger than their signal. Example: If you have an S5 noise floor and the person who normally gives you an S3 signal is talking you’ll never hear them.

It sucks spending all that money thinking i’d hear those distant stations better with a BIGGER proper base antenna. Wrong. I heard less. Much less. While i could still hear my buddy 30 miles north of me, i lost 7 guys who are 40-60 miles west of me. Slapped the mag mount back on the roof and POOF they are back in my receive again.

Same thing happened in 1995 when i bought the 40 foot tower and A99. I lost 70% of my long distance locals. Put the 102 back on the chimney, and POOF they were back. Sold the tower and A99 the next day, and have used that 102 and various mag mounts since. Thinking maybe i got a dud A99 back in the day i decided to try again. I bought the Sirio recently. At first i liked it until i realized i couldn't hear my distant locals. So i went back to whats always worked, and we are chatting nightly like we always have.

 

[niceguy71]

More noise. Correct. Turning the RF gain down wont help hear the stations buried below the noise floor. All that will do is make your radio even more deaf and only receive strong transmissions. My problem was not hearing the guys out in the weeds because the base antennas noise floors were stronger than their signal. Example: If you have an S5 noise floor and the person who normally gives you an S3 signal is talking you’ll never hear them.

It sucks spending all that money thinking i’d hear those distant stations better with a BIGGER proper base antenna. Wrong. I heard less. Much less. While i could still hear my buddy 30 miles north of me, i lost 7 guys who are 40-60 miles west of me. Slapped the mag mount back on the roof and POOF they are back in my receive again.

Same thing happened in 1995 when i bought the 40 foot tower and A99. I lost 70% of my long distance locals. Put the 102 back on the chimney, and POOF they were back. Sold the tower and A99 the next day, and have used that 102 and various mag mounts since. Thinking maybe i got a dud A99 back in the day i decided to try again. I bought the Sirio recently. At first i liked it until i realized i couldn't hear my distant locals. So i went back to whats always worked, and we are chatting nightly like we always have.

if it works for you and your happy that's all that matters.... as I said mower junkie does fantastic with his..... he got rid of it for a real base antenna now.... but I can't say that it didn't work fantastic for him... and I guess for you too.

I have tried to get Firestick antennas to work for 35 years and have never gotten one to work or seen one working really good.... ... maybe 3.5 miles..... but I bump into someone all the time that tells me they are the best antenna ever made and can get 120 miles range and that's not skip.... I shrug my shoulders and say I guess they work for some people...

 

[WSAC829]

Yep. As i’ve said before in this thread, what works for some won't work for others. Everybody has different success stories, just like everybody has different failures. There is no “perfect” radio, or coax, or antenna, or height, or mounting location, etc. It’s all trial and error for each and every user, and each and every user will get different results. That’s just how radio is. Doesn't matter if it’s CB, GMRS, 2M, 70CM, etc. There are just too many variables.

 

[robertwbob]

i must think back. was told i could never get out or hear when i put up my 2 meter /70 cm gp9. i used 50 feet of 2 inch galvanized water pipe,all 3 sections welded to gether. but the guy wires i used 5/16 inch stainless steel cable. the first nit it was up i talked simplex 65 watts fm to a guy 75 miles away.was told signal was great,asked what i was using so i told em. silence then lots of HEY YOU WILL RUIN YOUR RADIO,WONT WORK,EXTREME NOISE. i said whatever. my setup is quiet and can talk to tulsa oklahoma 118 miles from my house simplex 65 watts
i got a relative thats installed buisness radios so i listened to him. been doing it since 78. said use stainless steel cable as it helps ground plane. thats where i get all the noise guys to chatter.
opps side tracked but hey if it works for you cool/ i got sirio 2008 at 32 ft to base of antenna that needs going up another 15 feet but it out did my a99 on cb but i tuned the a99 for 10 meters n it is king on that band

 

[WSAC829]

Same. I run a small GMRS repeater. I’m using a 30 foot flag pole with 20 feet of aluminum electrical conduit on top of that (to keep it light weight) and a copper j-pole GMRS tuned antenna. No guy wires. Just buried it a foot in the ground and attached to the garage. I was told it’ll fold over in high winds, and that antenna won’t work for a repeater. Wrong and wrong. It’s still standing, and the antenna works just fine. Don’t you just love the naysayers?

 

[prcguy]

Same. I run a small GMRS repeater. I’m using a 30 foot flag pole with 20 feet of aluminum electrical conduit on top of that (to keep it light weight) and a copper j-pole GMRS tuned antenna. No guy wires. Just buried it a foot in the ground and attached to the garage. I was told it’ll fold over in high winds, and that antenna won’t work for a repeater. Wrong and wrong. It’s still standing, and the antenna works just fine. Don’t you just love the naysayers?

Don't get me started on J-poles....

 

[WSAC829]

Don't get me started on J-poles....

Lol. You and hundreds of others. Yet here i am serving my community with one.

 

[robertwbob]

Same. I run a small GMRS repeater. I’m using a 30 foot flag pole with 20 feet of aluminum electrical conduit on top of that (to keep it light weight) and a copper j-pole GMRS tuned antenna. No guy wires. Just buried it a foot in the ground and attached to the garage. I was told it’ll fold over in high winds, and that antenna won’t work for a repeater. Wrong and wrong. It’s still standing, and the antenna works just fine. Don’t you just love the naysayers?

Oh yes.if it works for you im ok .as for naysayers nnnaaahhhh we ok

 

[prcguy]

Oh yes.if it works for you im ok .as for naysayers nnnaaahhhh we ok

Maybe I should start another thread on GMRS antennas, but among other things I've got a GMRS repeater/antenna test bed at my house and I swap antennas all over the place checking range. A 1/4 wave ground plane or J-pole gets me about 10mi range to a mobile then its spotty and crappy. Going to a Comet GP-9 gets me out to about 25mi to the same spotty coverage. Changing that to a DB Products 4-bay dipole all pointing the same direction with 9dBd gain, 50-75mi until it gets real spotty. This is the exact same antenna mount, same hardline, same repeater.

I'm sure your community is grateful for your repeater but you could up the game a bit going to better antenna.

 

[WSAC829]

but you could up the game a bit going to better antenna.

I could, sure. But that involves a better mast, guy wires, and more money. There is already a big local repeater in town that covers 40+ miles. I’m not trying to compete with it. Just something for me, my wife, my neighbors, and anybody else who jumps on it to use. It’s solar powered also, so it makes for great emergency backup comms.

Your findings are probably pretty accurate. I get about 10 miles to mobiles and 15-ish miles to base stations all from a Ritron Liberty 5 watt repeater.

 

[ind224]

I've been runing a Maco 5/8 about a wave up fed with 5-50 for decades. Local and DX simple and economical.

 

[slowmover]

jcrmadden I think this post got a little high jacked....​

take a look at my install and I can give you some pricing.... and see if this is something you could make work at your house.

I love having a base... nice to do range tests .. talk local 20 to 30 miles away on AM.... and the height lets me do Skip on LSB all over the world... just the other day I had a guy over giving me an estimate and he said what's all this... I said just a Cb... he say's I had a CB in the 80's ... I said not like todays radios.... I walked over and said I can talk to other countries pretty easily I then turned it on cranked up the power ( I normally never go past 30 watts) and asked if anyone could hear me.... secretly hoping for a long distance contact... and I got a guy in Scotland..( I was jumping up and down inside but played it like it was nothing ) I thanked him for the reply and shut off the radio.... the guy that was over giving me an estimate stood there in amazement.

Very funny, Stone Face. If that don’t sell a radio rig I don’t know what would.

To the OP, what would be the motivation? For me it would be to have family & friends in mobile units that would drive my changes once an installation done, as I see base-to-base as less important (advantages at houses on electrical mains and permanent structure more easily leveraged).

Mobile-to-Base is, IMO, “the test”. What would drive me to initiate changes mobile and base to increase the radius of capture.

This may seem fluff to some, but I’ve the experience of outranging base stations while mobile whom I could still hear yet who couldn’t hear me with others who could report hearing both.

We can’t all afford a tower, or a complex (high wind load) antenna, so it’s certainly possible to have followed guidelines and experience with optimal components for our situation yet still come up short.

For purposes of the thread, I’d want to discuss antenna type and mount with homestead specifics to try and avoid being the PO’d Cornfed Fred I left behind in pre-dawn Kansas that morning.

For purposes of discussion (were it me) it’d also be with acknowledging that the base radio had the ears of the PRESIDENT Washington/George or QT80 (ICOM 7610 territory).

“I can get the feedpoint one wavelength high by mounting it here

“I can have the station near mains entrance on ground floor by locating it there

“It all comes together when I move a child’s bedroom to a windowless basement

In Texas it’s with high winds that antennas come to grief. In other states it’s snow & ice play that role.



.

 

[KI4ZNG]

What are the fundamental considerations for a base antenna?

I'm kicking around the idea of putting up a base antenna. Just to get started I'll run my mobile unit and my "shack" will be my truck.

I've read several threads regarding antennas and masts in different sub-forums. The information seems disjointed and in some instances contradictory (differing opinions aside).

End feed, random wire, dipole, beam, vertical, horizontal, inverted...

Mast height? Antenna length? Radials? Grounding? Is there an ideal setup for 11M?

I feel like I don't know enough to even ask the right questions.

So, my question here is, "what questions should I be asking?"

jcmadden I have a pretty basic antenna set up that I have used for years. It's a Imaxx 2000 up 30' mounted to the side of the house. The coax I use is 100' of RG-213. I also have made contacts all over the United States and many other countries. I also have a tin roof that I feel makes a difference.

 

[robertwbob]

Very funny, Stone Face. If that don’t sell a radio rig I don’t know what would.

To the OP, what would be the motivation? For me it would be to have family & friends in mobile units that would drive my changes once an installation done, as I see base-to-base as less important (advantages at houses on electrical mains and permanent structure more easily leveraged).

Mobile-to-Base is, IMO, “the test”. What would drive me to initiate changes mobile and base to increase the radius of capture.

This may seem fluff to some, but I’ve the experience of outranging base stations while mobile whom I could still hear yet who couldn’t hear me with others who could report hearing both.

We can’t all afford a tower, or a complex (high wind load) antenna, so it’s certainly possible to have followed guidelines and experience with optimal components for our situation yet still come up short.

For purposes of the thread, I’d want to discuss antenna type and mount with homestead specifics to try and avoid being the PO’d Cornfed Fred I left behind in pre-dawn Kansas that morning.

For purposes of discussion (were it me) it’d also be with acknowledging that the base radio had the ears of the PRESIDENT Washington/George or QT80 (ICOM 7610 territory).

“I can get the feedpoint one wavelength high by mounting it here

“I can have the station near mains entrance on ground floor by locating it there

“It all comes together when I move a child’s bedroom to a windowless basement

In Texas it’s with high winds that antennas come to grief. In other states it’s snow & ice play that role.

View attachment 171130

.we get same crap you get weather wise, here in the show me state

 

[jcrmadden]

To the OP, what would be the motivation?

Handheld to Mobile to Base is the target here.

I need to capture a specific (CTCSS) local signal from a handheld, via mobile relay, from long distance in any direction.

Who doesn't appreciate a little challenge, right?

The wife works from home and the base is primarily for getting emergency comms to her (from a financially justifiable point at least).

I'm building to a hypothetical situation that I haven't completely fleshed out... but here's the gist...

I'm routinely working on foot in remote areas and on rough terrain (so a nasty incapacitating accident is never rulable-outable).

The more remote and rugged the area, the higher the probably of an accident and the lower the probably of cell coverage.

The more remote and rugged the area, the more likely I am to be working alone (just not a great recipe really).

I carry a Baofeng, but I'm not licensed so I've never used it (Read: Completely Untested Comms).

The whole world has HAMS so it's possible that I could reach someone somewhere in the event of an emergency.

It's more likely a false hope, but it comforts the wife that I have it.

But I want something that I control; something I can depend on completely independent of other systems.

To me that's a President Randy III on my person, a President Washington mobile unit to relay, and a CTCSS capable radio and good ears at home.

I'm rarely more than a mile or two from the truck, so the Randy III gets me there.

My current mobile systems are **** hot (excellent TX and RX, with DC redundancy in the works).

The missing piece for the mobile is CTCSS and automatic relay (President Washington swap solves that).

The real unknown for me is the base antenna (specifically as it pertains to the RX of a single CTCSS signal).

I know there are several types, sizes, heights, and configurations that all have their advantages and disadvantages, but I'm largely ignorant of the details (the entire point of this post).

From what I've gleaned thus far the best antenna for my situation is an 18' vertical on a 36' mast? (assuming that I care about avoiding problems with the alphabet agencies).

Assuming that I don't care about the antenna police or Karen's opinion, is there a more effective setup? (theoretically speaking of course).

We live on one of the highest ridges in our county. Definitely a signal advantage, but big winds are frequent and we live in a band that gets one or more ice storms every year.

I know we're talking serious expense here, but I want the perfect system setup for this one application.

Everything else it does will be ancillary, and good enough.

 

[WSAC829]

I need to capture a specific (CTCSS) local signal from a handheld, via mobile relay, from long distance in any direction

Sounds to me you need something rather than CB for this. I’d suggest GMRS. $35 for a license thats good for 10 years that also covers your family. Since you already have a Baofeng (not type accepted for GMRS use, but who cares, people use them all the time) you could program GMRS freqs in to it. You could then build a simple ammo can simplex repeater for less than $200 and toss it on your truck or out in the field. All that’s left is a base radio setup at home for the wife.

I built an ammo can GMRS simplex repeater i use for camping/fishing/cottage/SHTF/etc. Works great for almost the exact same reasons you want. I control it, has remote enable/disable capabilities, supports ctcss tones, and doesn’t rely on anybody else's system. I mostly use a “rubber duck” antenna with it, but when i want more range i also carry an N9TAX slim jim and extra coax i can toss in a tree.

The repeater was cheap and easy to build. Metal ammo can, baofeng uv5r w/battery eliminator, surecom simplex repeater controller, small lifepo4 battery, 12v cig plug/usb adaptor, 10 watt solar panel with built in solar controller/maintainer, marine water proof 12v cig plug, and some random wires and connectors. It’s waterproof, and will run for days on just the battery due to the low power draw, or forever with the solar panel connected.

 

[jcrmadden]

Sounds to me you need something rather than CB for this. I’d suggest GMRS. $35 for a license thats good for 10 years that also covers your family. Since you already have a Baofeng (not type accepted for GMRS use, but who cares, people use them all the time) you could program GMRS freqs in to it. You could then build a simple ammo can simplex repeater for less than $200 and toss it on your truck or out in the field. All that’s left is a base radio setup at home for the wife.

I built an ammo can GMRS simplex repeater i use for camping/fishing/cottage/SHTF/etc. Works great for almost the exact same reasons you want. I control it, has remote enable/disable capabilities, supports ctcss tones, and doesn’t rely on anybody else's system. I mostly use a “rubber duck” antenna with it, but when i want more range i also carry an N9TAX slim jim and extra coax i can toss in a tree.

The repeater was cheap and easy to build. Metal ammo can, baofeng uv5r w/battery eliminator, surecom simplex repeater controller, small lifepo4 battery, 12v cig plug/usb adaptor, 10 watt solar panel with built in solar controller/maintainer, marine water proof 12v cig plug, and some random wires and connectors. It’s waterproof, and will run for days on just the battery due to the low power draw, or forever with the solar panel connected.

What kind of range do you get from your handheld unit to the repeater? How far can the repeater reach?

 

[jcrmadden]

How far can the repeater reach?

How far can GMRS reach in general?