Signal Hill P25 System

[mwjones]

While on a business trip I tend to scan across the frequencies looking for any signals, and then correlate back to RRDB. A new P25 Phase II system appeared when I was doing this Friday evening at my Lake Forest (Well more Foothill Ranch than Lake Forest, high enough elevation I'm picking up a lot) hotel room. Checking the license shows that the frequencies are licensed to the City of Signal Hill, and a road trip Saturday confirmed that Signal Hill was indeed the source.

I just finished parsing the data captured in DSDPlus, and have submitted for addition to RRDB. It is not showing any activity yet (in the couple of hours I was monitoring it there was only one radio affiliate, and no voice transmissions) so it may still be in testing mode.

From DSDPlus.P25data:

Network: BEE00.BF9 ; Signal Hill-CA

Bandplan #0: Base=851.00625 Offset=-45 Spacing=6.25 BW=12.5
Bandplan #1: Base=762.00625 Offset=+30 Spacing=6.25 BW=12.5
Bandplan #2: Base=851.01250 Offset=-45 Spacing=12.5 BW=12.5 Slots=2
Bandplan #3: Base=762.00625 Offset=+30 Spacing=12.5 BW=12.5 Slots=2
Bandplan #4: Base=935.01250 Offset=-39 Spacing=12.5 BW=12.5
Bandplan #5: Base=935.01250 Offset=-39 Spacing=12.5 BW=12.5 Slots=2


Site: 1.1 NAC=BF1 ; Signal Hill

Channel 0-521: 854.26250 CC
Channel 0-845: 856.28750 SCC
Channel 0-1005: 857.28750 SCC
Channel 0-1135: 858.10000 DATA

From DSDPlus.groups:

; Signal Hill-CA

P25, BEE00.BF9, 2405, 50, Normal, 0, 2024/03/09 12:00, ""

From DSDPlus.radios:

;; Signal Hill-CA



P25, BEE00.BF9, 2405, 780123, 50, Normal, 2, 2024/03/09 12:00, ""

 

[monitor142]

Nice catch. Will need to watch this one. If they are spending the money to replace their old Type IIi, I wonder if the PD will stay on the new P25 system rather than join the Long Beach system, LA-RICS, or ICI system short of interop. Signal Hill is a great site for the central basin around there.

 

[mwjones]

Nice catch. Will need to watch this one. If they are spending the money to replace their old Type IIi, I wonder if the PD will stay on the new P25 system rather than join the Long Beach system, LA-RICS, or ICI system short of interop. Signal Hill is a great site for the central basin around there.

Always glad to contribute to the community while on the road (let's just say there's another system entry coming in LA County that will take a bit more work to prepare for submission that will land like a rocket, but it's part of a bigger nationwide system).

With as tight as budgets are in most cities, what other users would put this system up if PD moved to one of the other systems? Back in Texas I saw a community put up a NexEdge system for City Services since the FD and PD were both dispatched by the County P25 system, and I doubt Signal Hill would justify an 8-talkpath P25 phase II system only for City Services, let alone the subscriber radio costs (since NexEdge/DMR/etc systems are much cheaper for subscriber radios).

 

[mwjones]

Just got back to Texas earlier this evening, and after leaving my mobile rig running in my hotel room yesterday monitoring this system for the day (although my laptop decided to reboot just before 2pm which stopped monitoring) I did gather a little more (not so good) information.

6 talkgroups had users affiliate with them, 2401, 2402, 2404, 2405, 2406 and 2416. There were a number of radios making lengthy transmissions on 2401, but the group is being flagged as encrypted. Same for the 3 logged calls on 2406. There was 3 logged calls on 2404 that weren't encrypted, but in reviewing the corresponding recordings they were nothing but dead air.

Here's my updated DSDPlus.groups file (note the time stamps are in Central Time since that's where it normally operates, subtract 2 hours for local California/Pacific time):

; Signal Hill-CA

P25, BEE00.BF9, 2401, 50, Normal, 38, 2024/03/12 15:56, ""
P25, BEE00.BF9, 2402, 50, Normal, 0, 2024/03/12 13:03, ""
P25, BEE00.BF9, 2404, 50, Normal, 3, 2024/03/12 15:47, ""
P25, BEE00.BF9, 2405, 50, Normal, 0, 2024/03/12 13:00, ""
P25, BEE00.BF9, 2406, 50, Normal, 3, 2024/03/12 13:02, ""
P25, BEE00.BF9, 2416, 50, Normal, 0, 2024/03/12 13:58, ""

And here's the DSDPlus.radios file (same thing regarding time stamps):

;; Signal Hill-CA



P25, BEE00.BF9, -2, 780121, 50, Normal, 1, 2024/03/12 11:01, ""


P25, BEE00.BF9, 2401, 1003, 50, Normal, 1, 2024/03/12 13:04, ""
P25, BEE00.BF9, 2401, 760199, 50, Normal, 81, 2024/03/12 15:53, ""
P25, BEE00.BF9, 2401, 760200, 50, Normal, 19, 2024/03/12 15:30, ""
P25, BEE00.BF9, 2401, 760201, 50, Normal, 48, 2024/03/12 15:57, ""
P25, BEE00.BF9, 2401, 760202, 50, Normal, 34, 2024/03/12 14:58, ""
P25, BEE00.BF9, 2401, 770755, 50, Normal, 2, 2024/03/12 13:30, ""


P25, BEE00.BF9, 2404, 770773, 50, Normal, 3, 2024/03/12 10:24, ""


P25, BEE00.BF9, 2405, 780123, 50, Normal, 4, 2024/03/12 13:00, ""


P25, BEE00.BF9, 2416, 770774, 50, Normal, 7, 2024/03/12 13:58, ""

Finally, I'll note, the only change to the DSDPlus.P25data is it now flags 858.1 as a voice channel (and all of the calls were Phase 1, so no Phase 2 calls were logged yet). This pattern is similar to what I saw in the early days of testing a new system in Texas, which means this system only very recenly went online, and you're likely in for a month or more of testing (in the Texas case it was several months because of coverage testing the entire county simulcast system, but with a single site and much smaller coverage area, it will likely go quicker here) before you might see users start moving from the old system.

The DBAdmin is still working on the submission, hope to see it show online soon.

 

[patin]

im showing SIGNAL HILL on LA-RICS TG 2320 SIGNAL HILL PD dispach

 

[marcotor]

im showing SIGNAL HILL on LA-RICS TG 2320 SIGNAL HILL PD dispach

Just because it's in the dB, does not mean it is 100% accurate.

 

[mwjones]

im showing SIGNAL HILL on LA-RICS TG 2320 SIGNAL HILL PD dispach

Is that talkgroup showing activity?

It is not uncommon for a talkgroup on one trunked system to be patched to another trunked system, either for general interoperability without switching between systems or for incompatible systems.

One of my local counties had a patch of another community on their Motorola Type II system, mainly because the community was P25 and Encrypted, and until the county replaced their radios could do encryption or P25 audio, but yet had to deal with pursuits through this neighboring community. That patch went away when the county upgraded to P25.

Likewise, one city on their own P25 system had patches to several neighboring P25 systems for Fire Tactical channels along the common borders (in this case freeways ran along those boarders), allowing fire apparatus across both cities to talk to one another without dropping their comms with their respective dispatchers.

 

[LB_Scan]

Hi

Is signal hill still use or use full p25 Encrypted channel dispatch channel. what abut the tac channels., is that full p25 or A talkroups listed below.

Talkgroups​

Police​

Subfleet	DEC	HEX	Mode	Alpha Tag	Description	Tag
0	40976	a010	A	SH PD 1	Police - Dispatch	Law Dispatch
0	40992	a020	A	SH PD 2	Police - Car-to-Car	Law Tac
0	41008	a030	A	SH PD 3	Police - Detectives	Law Tac
0	41024	a040	A	SH PD 5	Police - Common	Law Tac
0	41040	a050	A	SH PD	Police - Special Ops	Law Tac

Municipal Services​

Subfleet	DEC	HEX	Mode	Alpha Tag	Description	Tag
0	45072	b010	A	SH PW Ch.4	Public Works

https://www.radioreference.com/db/sid/735

Thanks

 

[monitor142]

The old Signal Hill hybrid system is offline and depreciated. The P25 system is digital only. So far it appears that PD activity is encrypted.

-M142

 

[NancyDrew17]

It's my understanding Signal Hill Police department is going solo. Looking at there meeting minutes they decided to pay Motorola over $3 million to build a new system that talks to no one else. They could have joined Long Beach or LA-RICS for much less. Looking at LA-RICS Subscriber agreements online, I estimate it would have cost Signal Hill $20,000 a year to join LA-RICS. This is a real head scratcher, I would think a city manager or city council would have questioned the Chief on why he needs to spend $3 million plus maintenance $ versus $20,000 a year. City taxpayers should be furious! Maybe the police chief has a lot of stock in Motorola...?

 

[mwjones]

It's my understanding Signal Hill Police department is going solo. Looking at there meeting minutes they decided to pay Motorola over $3 million to build a new system that talks to no one else. They could have joined Long Beach or LA-RICS for much less. Looking at LA-RICS Subscriber agreements online, I estimate it would have cost Signal Hill $20,000 a year to join LA-RICS. This is a real head scratcher, I would think a city manager or city council would have questioned the Chief on why he needs to spend $3 million plus maintenance $ versus $20,000 a year. City taxpayers should be furious! Maybe the police chief has a lot of stock in Motorola...?

Sadly, in many cases some elected or unelected official doesn't want to give up control to the bigger regional systems and will use their political clout to keep it that way. As I said in another thread recently on a similar discussion, the political battles in small town politics don't make the headlines but typically are worse than their counterparts that do make headlines in Sacramento or in DC.

I've seen way too many of these here in Texas, so it's nothing new.

 

[LB_Scan]

Hi

NancyDrew17 said
"Looking at there meeting minutes they decided to pay Motorola over $3 million to build a new system that talks to no one else."

How can Signal Hill Police department talk to the Long Beach PD and or the The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. Also who the woke to decided have p25 Encrypted channel on Signal Hill Police department.

 

[NancyDrew17]

Unless LA-RICS or Long Beach gives them direct access, they will have to pay more money to Motorola for Inter Radio Frequency (RF) Subsystem Interface (ISSI) connection.

And I'm sorry, $3 million for control? That seems excessive. And they really are cheating the cop on the street and the citizens. The police department can't even talk to their fire department now. And their fire department is on LA-RICS!

I wonder what they're going to pay Motorola for system maintenance? I bet it's more than $20,000 a year. They should just dump their new system and subscribe to LA-RICS.

 

[LB_Scan]

Hi

@NancyDrew17 You should notify the Signal Hill Police department. and speak your mind and make the Signal Hill Police department. and change it back the way it was on Signal Hill Police department. Who idea to make Signal Hill Police department to go on p25 Encrypted channel on Signal Hill Police department in the first place.

 

[marcotor]

And I'm sorry, $3 million for control? That seems excessive. And they really are cheating the cop on the street and the citizens. The police department can't even talk to their fire department now. And their fire department is on LA-RICS

Please explain to all of us WHY a Signal Hill Police Officer couldn't talk to the Fire Department if they wanted to?

Are you CERTAIN they issued single-band, non-analog non-conventional capable radios for EVERY PD officer and vehicle? And of course, the SIX new Dispatch consoles could NEVER do patching, correct?

 

[NancyDrew17]

Please explain to all of us WHY a Signal Hill Police Officer couldn't talk to the Fire Department if they wanted to?

Are you CERTAIN they issued single-band, non-analog non-conventional capable radios for EVERY PD officer and vehicle? And of course, the SIX new Dispatch consoles could NEVER do patching, correct?

Yes their procurement on the city website indicates they are purchasing UHF only radios. No VHF.

 

[AM909]

$20K is awfully low. How many units (mobiles + HTs) is that supposed to be?

 

[marcotor]

$20K is awfully low. How many units (mobiles + HTs) is that supposed to be?

Don't forget to add subscriber cost for all of the MDT's, assorted mobile modems, Consolettes, the new Dispatch Consoles, etc. But hey, the RR experts know better.

 

[marcotor]

Yes their procurement on the city website indicates they are purchasing UHF only radios. No VHF.

You passed over the other alternative: The new Dispatch consoles cannot initiate a PATCH? With your expertise, I am sure you can enlighten all of us.

It's not difficult at all, most agencies train with their dispatchers on it all the time.

 

[NancyDrew17]

I took the numbers from their agenda posted on the City website... They can likely patch yes.