St. George's, NL P25 system information

[Androx]

I've just submitted a ton of stuff to the DB for the P25 system. I'm going to be heading west from Gander in the morning - not sure how far I'll get because I have to be back in time to take off back to Calgary early on Wednesday morning. In the meantime, though, I will try to pin down as many sites as I can.

Now that I have had time to look at the scanner while it's receiving, I have witnessed the behavior you guys are talking about. The scanner is not getting "hung up" on the frequency, per se. The voice channel - on some sites - is constantly transmitting dead air in P25 mode. If you listen to the frequency in analog mode, you'll hear the high-revving-diesel-engine sound of a P25 transmission, constantly. Because P25 has such good noise reduction in comparison to analog, your scanner is totally silent when in digital mode.

Program the frequencies as a P25 trunk system. The one that "hangs up" is the voice channel. The other one is the control channel. It'll work just fine.

Ah, but both channels will hang up and they just alternate from each channel perhaps once a day. If I only program in just one channel (either one) it still locks on that channel. I think that by now I would have this squelch issue figured out. There is a way that I can get the scanner to scan over these channels but in that mode it does not stop when their is voice. Obviously, that is no good. I have been following directions from several people and following the manual and at no time have I been able to get the scanner to function properly.

Adaptive Digital threshold ( single channel P25 trunking ) are the only things I can see that prohibit me from scanning. I can certainly monitor the channels no problem but I have to lock on to the channel manually and switch chanels as they do at least once a day.

I am grateful for your help but no exercise that I have tried has brought me any closer to solving this issue. I am at a point where I would like to send my scanner to somebody local to troubleshoot and verify if this scanner is compatible with the P25 system in Western Newfoundland. Asd I say, I receive P25 well but squelch is not functional with or without voice. The control channel is listed in RR but that information was last updated in )ctober of 2010. I believe the system deviated in May 0f 2011 when Struct_dj first communicated the similar issue on his PSR500. No further communication form him since then has proven frustrating as he only lives 15 KM's from me in S'ville Crossing. I have sent him personal messages several times in the past month but he is not responding. I don't believe he is posting anywhere in RR. His last post on the issue was that he reconnected his original antenna on his scanner and it solved his issue. I don't have the original antenna on my scanner. It plugs horizontally into my scanner via BNC. It is a 5 inch rubber duckie antenna.

I have several videos on Youtube on this scanner. One will show the rubber duckie antenna I am using. My Youtube username is tobinindustrial. Perhaps when you get time you could look up the videos. Maybe you might notice something out of the ordinary that I am missing

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. is where my videos are posted. if you search my username there you will find my videos or channel. they are labelled Uniden Bc796D updates or troubleshooting #1, 2, 3 or 4

Thanks yet again for your time and talent.

Andy

 

[Jay911]

If the channels are "hanging up", you're not programming it as a trunk system. Program as a trunk system and you should be fine.

I just watched one of your videos, and you are programming them as conventional channels. That's your problem. I'm going to try to step you through programming them as a trunk system, but I am only working off the PDF manual, and I can't be sure I have all the steps here.

1. Get into the menu.
2. Choose menu option 2, "SCAN OPTION".
3. Choose sub-menu option 2, "TRUNK".
4. Choose a bank by scrolling with the knob or up/down keys and then press E. This will tell the scanner that you are programming trunk frequencies and not conventional frequencies in this bank.
5. In sub-menu 1 "TRUNK TYPE", select "ON".
6. Set the type as "6: TYPE2/P25 VHF".
7. This is where the scanner will be asking for base/step/offset settings. We don't need to enter this info because the settings are automatically provided by the control channel. The manual says "Press MENU three times to continue programming the trunk system". that should get you back to......
8. Menu selection 2. "TRUNK CHANNEL". Select an empty channel in the bank with the scroll knob or up/down arrows, and press E.
9. Enter the first frequency you have, and press E.
10. Do this again with another empty channel slot for the second frequency.

At this point, you should be able to hit SCAN and the scanner will start scanning the system. I don't remember if you have to hit TRUNK to get into trunk mode - I don't think you do. If you hit "SCAN" and see "ID SEARCH" or something similar on your screen, you're now scanning the trunk system.

You should see a talkgroup ID come up when people talk, after you program your scanner this way. I don't know what the TGID is for your area. In Gander, it's 534. In Clarenville, it's 532. It looks like, according to the RRDB, your talkgroup ID is 546, if you're in Bay St. George. We'll see what you find.

 

[Androx]

Sounds a bit different than what I was programminbg. I will give it a go. If this fails, I will video tape my programming and upload it as a video so you may critique what may be the flaw in my setup

You are too kind and generous with your time and knowledge.

I'll get back to you soon.

 

[Androx]

Jay911,

I just recently uploaded a video on Youtube following your specific instructions. There appears to be a glitch by me or the scanner in the enter mode for putting in the actual CC frequency and voice frequency. Have a look at the video when you get a chance and let me knwo if you detect any programming issue (s)

My youtube username is tobinindustrial

The video is labelled "Uniden BC796D update # 5"

Thanks yet again Jay. Either way I need to confrim what the heck is going on with the scanner.

Androx

 

[Jay911]

Ok, where you got to after entering the data (or rather leaving in the default data) in "BASE CONF 1", is where you need to back out with the MENU key. Sorry, the instructions (even in the manual) aren't very clear about that. So after you press Enter the four times (entering the base freq, "space" value, and offset channel number), you need to hit MENU until you get back to the "TRUNK MENU" you were in at about 1:02 of the video. Below "1:TRUNK TYPE" is "2:TRUNK CHANNEL". Scroll down and hit E on that option and you should be prompted for frequencies to be input. That's where you put the two frequencies you have.

When you hit SCAN, you took the scanner out of trunk setup mode, and when you entered the frequencies in after that, you were entering them as conventional frequencies (even though you had set the bank up already as a trunk bank). Not your fault - these scanners, especially the older Uniden ones, are notoriously hard to set up properly by hand.

Part of the problem is that the MENU button on the Unidens is misunderstood. Think about it this way - when you are in scan mode or manual mode, MENU takes you to the main menu. When you're in the main menu, MENU takes you back to scan or manual mode. But when you're in any other menu (i.e. when you go from the main menu to Scan Options, then to Trunk, then to Trunk Type), hitting MENU takes you one step back toward the main menu every time it's pressed. So, if you were in Trunk Type (entering the base/offset/etc), MENU should take you to the menu that says "Conventional" or "Trunk". MENU again at that point should take you to the menu that starts with "Scan Options". Sometimes you have to use this to "get out" of the menu you're in and go to a different one.

Having said all that, once you enter the base/offset values, you're only partway done. You still have to enter the frequencies - in Trunk setup mode. So, hit Menu (and any other buttons like up/down arrows or E, or the knob) as many times as necessary to get to the menu where "2:TRUNK CHANNEL" is listed. From there, you will be prompted for the trunk frequency - enter the two frequencies you have, one at a time. It may ask you for an "alpha tag" - you don't need to put this in. Alpha tags are all but useless for trunk frequencies - should be able to just hit E again to leave a blank one. If it asks you about step values, set it to 5 kHz. If it doesn't ask you, that's fine.

Once you get those two frequencies entered, you should FINALLY be able to hit scan and see "ID SEARCH" scroll across the screen.

 

[Androx]

Ok, I will work at these instructions and let you know if I get a break through!

 

[Androx]

The scanner does search ID briefly but then seems to stop on 161.2500.

Another video on the way.... Your instructions are making this units functions much more clearly....

 

[Androx]

Video loading now!

 

[Jay911]

You've entered everything correctly. Did you clear the scanner's memory before programming the trunk details? Looks like it might be stopping on the frequencies you programmed in conventional mode.

When it says "Error" when you hit SCAN, that's because no talkgroup IDs have been programmed. It's saying you can't scan - you can only search. You can fix that by programming in the talkgroup value(s) for your area. I'm not sure which ones you want, because I'm not sure what area you're in (and we seem to be getting more and more talkgroup IDs all the time). If you have the patience, I would program in all the ones in the RRDB: 532, 534, 545, 546, 547, 548, 549, 561, 597, and 662.

Then, you can operate in scan mode, but if the talkgroup for your area isn't one of those, you won't hear anything. I'd stay in search mode - instead of hitting scan, hit SEARCH.

 

[Androx]

I have to say that at this stage of the learning curve, I find the scanner reacting in close proximity to a proper scan mode. It appears now that the scanner hangs up on the data channel ( the one not is use ) I will monitor to see if it locks on the opposite frequency.

I managed to program the talk group ID' for 160.5900 which is 546. This is the talk group ID for Stephenville / Bay St. George area. It is the same area. Stephenville is the hub and Bay St. George is the area surrounding it and including it.

I am now trying to input the othert talkgroup ID's. Will I need to put these ID's in each frequency or will one talk group ID cover the 2 frequencies I have to program. I ahve learned a lot more about this scanner but I have some distance to go in order to fully understand its workings.

At this point I don't know really what questions to ask. It is reasonably clear what needs tro be done it is just a matter of doing the input in the proper sequence and in proper places. The scanner does scan for a brief moment now but locks on the opposite data channel. Also once in scan mode, I am unable to bring up the Link Channel. It stays on data channel.

BTW, you have the patience of Job...

 

[Jay911]

It shouldn't be stopping on that frequency at all. The way trunking works - in a simplified way - is that there is one control channel, and one or more voice channels. The control channel tells radios what to tune to, to listen to the conversation for a particular talkgroup. It also tells the radios when to start listening to that talkgroup and when to stop listening. So the fact that the voice channel is always transmitting idle "dead air" audio should have no effect, because the scanner is following the control channel.

The reason the control channel changes from time to time (and the other channel then becomes the voice channel) is because trunk systems can be set up to rotate the control channel through two or more (or all) channels in the system. This is primarily done to make sure that all the equipment is getting an even amount of wear - you wouldn't want one transmitter to be running at 100% use for years on end, because it would burn out before the others.

Talkgroups are not assigned to frequencies. The frequencies together (in your case, two frequencies, but in some cases more, up to 32 of them at once) make up the trunk system. Talkgroups are assigned to the trunk system. In the 796D's case you are assigning the talkgroups to the bank you chose to be part of this trunk system (in your case, bank 1). You can put as many talkgroups as your scanner can hold (if I recall correctly the 796D can handle up to 200 or 250 talkgroups, but there are far fewer than that on the NL P25 system).

You only need put in the other frequencies for other sites if you plan to use your scanner in other locations. The frequencies are relevant to which site you're monitoring. For example, I'm in Deer Lake right now, and the control channel is 160.53, with the voice channel being 162.12. There's no point in you putting those frequencies in unless you plan to be in Deer Lake.

One more thing about talkgroups - in many systems, talkgroups only show up on a particular site when a radio using that talkgroup affiliates (signs on) to that tower. This is done so that the system isn't tied up broadcasting talkgroups unnecessarily when nobody's listening to them. What this means is, for example, if you program in 532 in your current setup, you will probably not hear anything for a long time, if ever, because no RCMP radios are tuned in to the Clarenville talkgroup when they are in Stephenville. However, if someone in Stephenville were to switch their radio to that talkgroup, then you would start to hear it, because the trunk system knows that it needs to provide that talkgroup to a user in that area. Having said that, it might be wise to put more than just your local TG in the scanner, because you never know if someone might drive through listening to their home group, or the system could be configured to share certain talkgroups automatically (for example, Deer Lake and Corner Brook might both transmit their talkgroups on each other's towers).

I still don't have an explanation for why the scanner hangs up on the non-control channel frequency. It might have something to do with the scanner getting confused by the voice channel constantly transmitting. The 796D was built a long time ago in terms of radio design, and the P25 trunk system specs might have changed since then.

I have a 796D at home, but home is near Calgary so obviously I won't be getting any reception there. Here's an idea, though, if you can wait that long: if you have a cable and the proper port on your computer, I could try to create the programming in my scanner, find some programming software that would work (there must be a freeware/shareware version of something that will run on the 796D), read my radio with it, and you could try to write the programming to your radio. I am pretty sure that all you need to program it is a 9-pin to 9-pin serial cable, and the necessary port on your computer (or a USB to serial adapter if your computer does not have a 9-pin serial port).

 

[ve1sef]

Just a thought, had similar issues with both the 785/796.
I had to set the delay mode to "0" on the control channel.
Long shot but might help.

 

[Androx]

I'll certainly look into that. Thanks!

 

[Androx]

Well, it appears to be close to solved. At this stage of the game I have only so many options with regard to programming the scanner in the correct way. There are other minor functions like status bit, delay, etc... that I can tinker with. It will be trial and error at this stage unless video # 7 offers up more information or sparks an eureka moment for you.

Also, at this stage of the game I feel I should retain you for a base fee or put you on salary for all the work and knowledge base you have offered up so far.

I am forever grateful for your good deeds and the the information others have posted here. It all helps to prove or dispute any theory on this issue.

 

[jlo]

should work

Hey Androx
it should work i had the same issue with both my pro106 and 396xt. but after following what Jay911 had listed some time ago in one of the posts. it now stops on the vc.
with the id's listed. just be patience and it will come.
next time i'm in your area i'll pm you maybe we can get something on the go for you.

 

[Androx]

You are most welcome to come and help and I appreciate your offer. I am confident that Jay911 has all the answers to my problem. He has brought me to the threshold of solving the issues. I am a lot closer then I have ever been in programming it properly. I am just not able to get the right sequence in the fianl stages of programming the other channels under the same talkgroup or something like that. He explained it as best he could but I just keep hitting a brick wall and cannot get it right no matter what I try. I just don't see what I am missing.

JLO, I certainly have lost courage and stopped making videos as I have been going in circles just a short distance from the finish line. If you can arrange to have a go at this scanner Id be forever grateful especially if you can teach me to master this hurdle. Thanks again. Keep in touch...

Androx

 

[Jay911]

Hi guys and sorry for not posting for a while. I had some troubles getting home (as you may have noticed in the other thread), jumped right back into work a day late, and when I got off work, started finding neat and exciting stuff (ooh shiny!) here to play with.

I posted about the 796D and P25 in the Uniden forum in the thread: http://forums.radioreference.com/un...c796d-maybe-weirdly-designed-p25-systems.html

The people in that thread (along with people who have been helping in this thread and directly) seem to be divided on the answer. Some say it can't work, some say it will work if the base/step/offset are put in properly. One thing I forgot to try when I got back here to Calgary was to whip out my 796D from whereever it is (trunk of the car I think!) and see if I can program up the system by hand - even if I'm not in range. Maybe I'll try that later tonight.

Have you confirmed that you wiped the scanner memory with 2/9/LO before trying to program it? That's the only reason I can think of that it would still hang on the voice channel. The trunk system works by listening to the control channel and following the instructions it gives. It's not telling the scanner (or pro radios) to move to the voice channel unless there's actual radio traffic going on there, so you shouldn't be getting hung up on that channel whatsoever.

Do you have the right cables to hook this to a computer (and the right ports on the computer)? If I can get it programmed on my own 796D, I could try to find a freeware or shareware program that will let me download the data from the scanner, send you the file, and let you upload it to your scanner with the same program.

 

[Androx]

My directions for clearing the scanner involves the 2, 9 and hold ( all memory clear appears) I just used the L/O and the same information appears but the screen went dark in the middle and a clear amber border is now there... OMG what have I done. This is new territory to me. maybe it may work now if I can retrace the steps as printed off (submitted by JAY911 ( thumbs up ) I hope this is the breakthrough!

Maybe I wiped out the Firmware upgrade? I hope not...! That was not in the manual ( 2,9, L/O... WOW At least I never saw it...!

 

[Jay911]

Sorry, I should have checked before posting that. You should have used 2/9/HOLD. I just tried 2/9/LO on my own radio and all it appears to be is an LCD test. Turn it off and on again and everything should be back to normal.

I programmed the system in on my own scanner but had to choose offset 380 instead of some other value (I was gunning for 0). Naturally since I'm not anywhere near the trunk system, I can't test it.

I found a software package that is freeware for 30 days and I'm trying to create the trunk system in that right now. If I do, and if you have the right cables etc, maybe I can send you the file and you can upload it to yours.

 

[Androx]

Well, I proceeded to press menu and it did some kind of test of data... ( don't remember what it said) It then locked in a bunch of random frequencies through the band and so I programmed channel one as 161.2500 and channel 2 as 160.5900 and the F###king thing is scanning. I locked out all the other channels that the scanner randomly locked in and it is scanning between channels one and two now. BUT... Will it lock on the voice when it comes around. Nothing yet... I will monitor the situation closely.