Statewide Radio System Faces Obstacles

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iamhere300

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N_Jay said:
I would not pre-judge the SWN solution until it is implemented.

M/A-COM has some good ideas on how to interface these different networks. We will have to wait and see if it works as well as planned.

I guess I will take this as the humorous and sarcastic items?

The SWN is up and running. Not across the state, but in some areas it
is actually online, and being used.

Look at the offerings in radios for the SWN. They introduced a higher priced mobile
AFTER the bid acceptance, which is the only one that will do any kind of P-25, and
or course not on the network.

The bidding was fatally flawed, M/A com is doing lots of co-locates, which
Motorola was not going to do in their bid (at least not on commercial towers). That,
and numerous other reasons is why M/A comms bid was cheaper - but already appears
that it will go badly over budget. Check out the Albany newspaper.

It will be fun.

Would Mother do better? I have no idea. I don't think either of them are going to do
amazing things....
 
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N_Jay

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iamhere300 said:
ROFL.... Yes, you can do wonders if you have BOTH radios.

. . .

And either manufacturer can do it, as well as most two way shops.

My post was in response to one stating that M/A-COM had some advantage over Motorola in this regard.
 

2112

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N_Jay said:
2112 said:
Exactly. And boy, if what you advised about Motorola is true, I'm rather underwhelmed about their facilitation of interoperability.

I'm not sure what you mean?

I meant that if Motorola is actually purposely making interoperability difficult, then I'll be sorely disappointed in them.

:)
 
N

N_Jay

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2112 said:
I meant that if Motorola is actually purposely making interoperability difficult, then I'll be sorely disappointed in them.

:)

And you said so in quite a confusing manner.

Don't worry, they are not.
 

2112

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N_Jay said:
And you said so in quite a confusing manner.

LMAO. I guess I got up too high on my high horse. :D

Sorry 'bout that. :)
 

freqscout

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I doubt that the bigger /\/\'s at Motorola HQ are trying to make life harder for people in need of communications. Where I can see conflicting interests is when you bring a non-neutral third party to the table to give you advice when you are making policies. I can see third-party input, just not from a source that stands to make a lot more money if they sway you in one way or another.

The policy makers should make policies and then allow for the communications companies and the agency's radio techs to figure out how to implement the decisions. That is a more neutral method of making interoperability decisions.
 
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Chaos703

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What we have here is a fine example of furious and healthy free market competition taking advantage of government employees who don't really understand competitive business. Motorola and M/A Com absolutely ARE playing the interoperability card against each other. Frankly, they would be foolish not to.

Motorola's strategy is to go after entire state systems and then make it "illogical" for municipalities to do anything other than sign up with the Moto "status quo."

M/A Com's strategy is to be the cheaper and smarter under dog that can save their clients millions by outsmarting "Big Radio."

It doesn't surprise me to hear that M/A Com is actually much more proactive, advanced and agile when it comes to interpretability. It is in Motorola's best interests to be difficult to interoperate with because they depend on a seamless Moto-only network as a key benefit to justify their much higher price. M/A Com's job is to outsmart Moto by making themselves compatible. Moto's mission is to make M/A Com customers regret their decision not to go with Motorola.

Occasionally in my business I run across instances in which I'm depending on two competing vendors to work together for one goal. Since I understand business from their point of view, I know that it's incumbent on me to A) force them to work together and B) protect my own interests by not letting myself get caught up in their game.

The truth probably is that the governments and agencies contracting with these two companies need to do a much better job working of with each other so they can write better contracts with the comm provider of their choice. For example, Tulsa and BA should have worked together to write contracts that include big financial penalties to both Moto and M/A Com if they end up with systems that don't integrate easily. It's important to remember that local and state governments have as much (if not more) ego hang-ups as these businesses. Corporations are just after money. Governments are after power. More ego in power than money.

It's really not healthy, realistic nor fair to expect that these two companies won't be at each other's throat. Remember, it is the pursuit of financial reward that keeps the new and improved technology rolling off the assembly line. Competition is an extremely good thing. Governments just need to take some responsibility, get over themselves and be much wiser consumers.

One final thought: In the Tulsa World article the OKC PSPM made a very good point when he said "We can't take 99 percent of our communication needs and set them aside for the one exception that we might respond to outside our jurisdiction." Why should the City spend millions and millions of dollars they don't need to for the very, very few instances in which they need to get on the same channel with outside agencies? Truth be known, when the "doubt-it-will-ever-happen" moment comes to get OKCPD on the same channel with Norman PD, the officers themselves won't remember where to switch anyway.

My vote is to sack all this trunking foolishness and get everyone back on 155.49, 155.67 and 155.76. Those were the days.

I'm kidding, by the way.
 

KAA951

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For those who aren't looking at your neighbors to the north- Kansas also has a new P-25 wide area system going in. The southeast part of the state (north of Tulsa) is already up and running and the next phase will bring everything along and south of the Kansas Turnpike (KC to Topeka to Emporia to Wichita) onto the system. Should be nice for KHP and OHP to be able to talk directly to one another- something we haven't had here since we dumped our VHF-lowband system for 800 MHz conventional repeaters 10 years ago.
 

CommShrek

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TTFD238 said:
Should be nice for KHP and OHP to be able to talk directly to one another- something we haven't had here since we dumped our VHF-lowband system for 800 MHz conventional repeaters 10 years ago.

AFAIK, OHP retained the low band VHF radios and ADDED the 800 radios. I can see the reasoning for that. Interoperability and the fact that the low band VHF will work in places that the 800 radios won't. So Kansas ditched their VHF low bands all together?
 

KAA951

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CommShrek said:
AFAIK, OHP retained the low band VHF radios and ADDED the 800 radios. I can see the reasoning for that. Interoperability and the fact that the low band VHF will work in places that the 800 radios won't. So Kansas ditched their VHF low bands all together?

KHP "migrated" completely to 800 a few years back and ditched their whole VHF-Low system. Coverage with the 800 conventional towers (77 odd sites) has been good and they are now starting to upgrade to P-25 digital wide-area trunking.
 

2112

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Chaos703 said:
What we have here is a fine example of furious and healthy free market competition taking advantage of government employees who don't really understand competitive business. Motorola and M/A Com absolutely ARE playing the interoperability card against each other. Frankly, they would be foolish not to.

Thanks for the interesting perspective, Chaos... thought-provoking, indeed.

Chaos703 said:
One final thought: In the Tulsa World article the OKC PSPM made a very good point when he said "We can't take 99 percent of our communication needs and set them aside for the one exception that we might respond to outside our jurisdiction." Why should the City spend millions and millions of dollars they don't need to for the very, very few instances in which they need to get on the same channel with outside agencies? Truth be known, when the "doubt-it-will-ever-happen" moment comes to get OKCPD on the same channel with Norman PD, the officers themselves won't remember where to switch anyway.

I agree. Don't get me wrong... I understand the importance of interoperability and all, I just don't think that we should kneejerk our way into blowing it way out of proportion. Honestly, alot of discussion and op/ed that I've seen does just that. Smartly done with our feet on the ground is the way that we need to go about it.

:)
 

dstew67

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OK, I'll speak my 2-cents-worth:

1. Of course Moto is being difficult. Why would they want to make is easy for competition to come in with a "just-as-easy-as-the-big-guys" solution? It's good business, and good business is usually controversial because it's rarely good for everyone who's effected. This is similar to mobile phone technologies, in that we have PCS, GSM, TDMA, CDMA, etc. Even when you have several carriers on the same platform (GSM) from which to choose, you have to have your phone "unlocked" to switch carriers and keep the same phone. It's precisely why carriers made the manufacturers lock the phones. They want to make it difficult for the competition to "steal" you away.

2. Protocol, like P25 and ProVoice, is not the complicating element. It's the agencies putting the systems in who complicate interoperability. Standards are made to ease the use of their application in industries. The communications industry is no different. This is why there is a digital standard. If your agency, or others nearby, stray from the standard, you will have problems. In the case of OKC, there are many issues that can and will eventually be solved, but there are a lot of hoops to jump through to make it happen.

3. My biggest issues with OKC's choice:
a. This $24.5 million system was approved because the City appealed to our emotions after Jeff Rominger and Matt Evans were killed in a horrific crash, with the City telling us that this might have been avoided if we only had a radio system that could "talk" to the OHP system. Even though the technology will eventually be in place to allow this communication, it isn't yet in place. As much as I hear now that the reason for the new radio system is to replace our aging system, it wasn't the reason given at the time the tax was proposed. It wasn't the reason I voted for it.

b. Putting aside that complaints about "I can't hear it on my scanner", which really come across as whiny, there is some validity to the complaint. Scanner listeners have contributed to saving lives and property, and have contributed to apprehending suspected criminals. I'm not aware of any reliable statistics that indicate how often this happens, but it does happen. I know, it's happened to me, where I have been able to contribute on more than one occasion.

c. We have several municipalities within and around the city limits, who will be unaware of sometimes-critical events as they happen. Right now, officers on patrol in these towns, like Bethany, Warr Acres, Nichols Hills, The Village, etc. can still hear an OKC officer give the description of a suspect vehicle. That's time-critical information, and can easily be heard right now with scanner that most of those officers can purchase, and some do out of their own pockets, rather cheaply. When the VHF links go down, that information will take much longer to get to that same officer's ears, which could make the difference in whether or not that suspect is caught. It scares me that those tasked with selecting our radio system did not take this into consideration, and in fact admitted to that when this scenario was mentioned at a recent meeting with various agencies in attendance.

d. With the TCBs and various patches, I'm concerned that there are too many things that can break. No radio system is immune from going down, but shouldn't we try to limit all the additional elements needed to make the system what it should be?

e. This point goes right back to placing the blame where it should be, on the shoulders of the agency. Most users, in fact I would bet with very few exceptions, know that there are NPSPAC in place which they can use if the EDACS system goes down. It was just a couple weeks ago that I listened while FD and PD dispatchers could only communicate with officers who had VHF radios. Why haven't we trained the users of these two critical agencies that they should switch to an NPSPAC channel when the system goes down? This seems to be such a "no-brainer". It might have been covered in an initial training class, but it obviously wasn't addressed properly. I've made a point to talk to several officers and firefighters who haven't a clue that these repeaters exist, or how to access them, or that they have those channels in their radios already.

The comment has been made here that Oklahoma City had to make the right decision for Oklahoma City. The glaring opposite position is that there isn't anything that could not also have been accomplished with an industry-standard protocol. Why buy a proprietary system? If the answer to that is money, shame on those who let that be the criteria. If the answer is that some of these things weren't considered, shame on those who let someone make this kind of decision who obviously didn't know what they were doing. If the answer is something else, I'd like to hear it. Maybe the answer is just poor planning. God knows I've been guilty of that, but it's usually when I don't seek out, or listen to the advice of people who know more than I do.
 

mule_tail

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While there are points d_stew's comments worth contemplating, there is another that he is repeating that should be clarified. Officers Evans and Rominger were killed in their unfortunate accident on August 31, 2000. The vote for the OKC temporary Public Safety Equipment Sales tax was passed in March, 2000, clearly prior to the accident. It included numerous capital projects totaling an estimated $90 million. If you check your records you will find it was the State who "reminded" the public and the legislature of the event in an effort to obtain State funding to expand the Tulsa/State system.
 
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And do you blame them (the state) one of their troopers were killed. And the contractor for the job wasnt choosen until Jan02 (according to the okc.gov website). Dstew was stating the fact that WE voted in a sales tax for better comms between agencies. I dont disagree that okc has a wonderful system but its great for okc and no one else.
 

dstew67

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My, how time plays tricks with my mind. Mule is right. The sales tax initiative was PRE-Evans-Rominger. I am guilty of standing on that faulty soapbox all high and mighty.

I would, however, submit that every other point I made stands alone, and my incorrect statement about the origin of the sales tax doesn't relieve anyone from their due responsibility. It remains that decisions have been made which seem poor, at best.
 

iamhere300

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freqscout said:
The city isn't barred from federal money for picking ProVoice.


Note, I never said they were. What I am saying however, is that the
push for communications grant money from DHS, from the various grant
programs has been for P-25 radios and now according to DHS, it will be
a requirement in this year of grants.

So, in order to make any provoice radios available under DHS comm grant
money, they will need to be also capable of P25, at least how it stands now.

This is a big issue among many agencies in NYS right now.
 
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N_Jay

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iamhere300 said:
Note, I never said they were. What I am saying however, is that the
push for communications grant money from DHS, from the various grant
programs has been for P-25 radios and now according to DHS, it will be
a requirement in this year of grants.

So, in order to make any provoice radios available under DHS comm grant
money, they will need to be also capable of P25, at least how it stands now.

This is a big issue among many agencies in NYS right now.

Unfortunetly P25 is not a requirement, only a recommendation (a strong recommendation).

DHS is unable to "REQUIRE", so "recommend" is as far as they can go.
Everyone there I have spoken with wishes they could require standards, but that is a whole other discussion.
 

iamhere300

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Nope. Require. Wait for the next round, and its guidance documents.

Some states, like Missouri, have already jumped the guns and written
it into their grants that they administer for the feds. A couple of NY and
PA congressscritters are trying to get some blanket waivers, but it is not
looking good.
 
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N_Jay

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iamhere300 said:
Nope. Require. Wait for the next round, and its guidance documents.

Some states, like Missouri, have already jumped the guns and written
it into their grants that they administer for the feds. A couple of NY and
PA congressscritters are trying to get some blanket waivers, but it is not
looking good.

I really enjoy arguing with people who insist they are right when they are not.:twisted:

The FACT is that DHS (and all other Federal Grant Sources) do NOT require P25.

They do RECOMMEND P25, and use all sorts of words to ENCOURAGE P25 and DISCOURAGE non-P25.

They may ask for JUSTIFICATION if not P25, etc.

BUT, as I said (more than once) they do not (nor can they) REQUIRE P25.
I wish they could, people in DHS have said they wish they could.

Some STATES (Note, STATES< not Federal Agencies) have written into statute, code, regulations, or grant filing instructions that they (the STATE) REQUIRE P25, but that is not the same as the Federal Agency requiring it for grants.

This is true of last years grants, it is true of this years grants, and it will (unfortunately) be true for next years grants.

If you don't believe me, please post a link or quotation from a FEDERAL Grant Application, or application instructions that says that P25 is REQUIRED.
 
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