Thinking Of Installing A Discone For My SDR Receivers

[Merovingian]

I have been interested in RF reception for a long time but it usually takes a backseat to my digital photography and astronomy hobbies. Over the last few years I have been putting my time, attention and especially money into photography and astronomy equipment. I have decided to take a brief rest from that to boost up my radio reception equipment. I have had an Ettus B200 SDR for a few years but didn't use it hardly at all because I have no outside antenna, I bought several small screw on antennas for it but I was only ever able to receive the strongest FM radio stations. I got bored with that and put it away for the last several years. Last week I ordered an SDRPlay RSPduo receiver mainly for receiving shortwave, I'll use it for receiving 1kHz-70MHz and I plan to let my B200 receive it's range of 70MHz-6GHz.

I am planning to buy a Wellbrook ALA1530LN NA active loop antenna to use with my SDRPlay RSPduo and I was thinking of installing some sort of discone antenna for B200 to cover the 70MHz-6GHz frequencies to receive whatever is out there. My problem is at the moment I want to be able to receive everything because I don't know what I want to listen to yet. I would like to listen to civilian aircraft, military aircraft (if any are around), police, fire, ect. . . also amateur radio, satellites (I know that takes a different type of antenna) and other things I don't even know is out there. I've done some reading about discone antennas and it seems I may have to put up two or three antennas to cover the majority of frequencies since the published frequency range of the discones don't really cover what they say they do.

A few years ago I bookmarked a post I read here made by prcguy, I was impressed with his description he gave of his discone antennas he frequently uses.

https://forums.radioreference.com/threads/discone-reception-questions.360388/post-2830913

He stated: "my go to antenna(s), which I'm using right now on my new Icom R-8600 is a a pair of Discones, one covers about 100 to 800Mhz and the other about 400 to 3,200MHz combined with a diplexer with a transition in the 600Mhz range." I would be very interested to know the brand and model of antennas he is using along with the brand and model of diplexer. His setup sounds like it would cover what I would like to listen to.

I have no experience with using all of the various antennas available so I have no idea what antennas would and would not work with what I want to do. I will probably need at least 2 if not 3 antennas to perform decently in the large range of frequencies I want to explore, then trying to use them all on one SDR receiver is another challenge.

At one point I was thinking of a discone with multiple vertical elements tuned for the various frequencies instead of one long whip on top.



I don't know if this is useful or useless.

Here is another one with multiple elements


I saw this today. It is similar to the first picture.

I don't know if any company makes this type or not.

I have heard that this Antennacraft ST2 was a pretty good antenna

It is apparently not made anymore.

Prcguy seems to be a super guru in this field, I'm hoping he can pass along some information and I hope anyone else with experience in listening to what is out there can give me some advice on what antennas I can install and what else there is to tune into beyond airplanes and police/utilities.

Thanks in advance to everyone.

 

[ka3jjz]

You have so many interests - perhaps too many - that trying to do too much at once would be overwhelming. So (assuming here that you can put something outside) using a discone (maybe better an Omni-X from DPD) would be a place to start. Having a single antenna would seem limiting, but with so many interests, that one 'utility' antenna would be simply a place to get your feet wet in several of your interests.

It's pretty important to narrow your interests at first; let them grow as time moves on. Let's start with the basic ones first - police and fire. You have no indication of where you are (county and state is fine), so it's hard to recommend something. Even a discone will work to some degree on 800 Mhz (though not really optimally), so if you are in an area that has a lot of trunk sites around you, it will work for the time being.

Do you need low band (30-50 Mhz) coverage? Discones really aren't the choice here, unless they have a whip in the center.

Start small, then build up. Mike

 

[TailGator911]

FWIW, my Diamond NJ130 wideband discone is my everything antenna. I use a directional yagi for my local Ohio MARCS P25 Phase 1 digital simulcast system, as it performs better aimed directly at my closest site, but everything else in my shack is fed by my discone and duplexed out via a Stridsberg 8-port multi-coupler. Couldn't be happier with my Diamond NJ130 discone antenna! If you incorporate one into your system you surely will not be disappointed

JD
kf4anc

 

[Merovingian]

FWIW, my Diamond NJ130 wideband discone is my everything antenna. I use a directional yagi for my local Ohio MARCS P25 Phase 1 digital simulcast system, as it performs better aimed directly at my closest site, but everything else in my shack is fed by my discone and duplexed out via a Stridsberg 8-port multi-coupler. Couldn't be happier with my Diamond NJ130 discone antenna! If you incorporate one into your system you surely will not be disappointed

JD
kf4anc

Thanks for the recommendation. I'm going to go read about that antenna.

 

[Merovingian]

You have so many interests - perhaps too many - that trying to do too much at once would be overwhelming. So (assuming here that you can put something outside) using a discone (maybe better an Omni-X from DPD) would be a place to start. Having a single antenna would seem limiting, but with so many interests, that one 'utility' antenna would be simply a place to get your feet wet in several of your interests.

It's pretty important to narrow your interests at first; let them grow as time moves on. Let's start with the basic ones first - police and fire. You have no indication of where you are (county and state is fine), so it's hard to recommend something. Even a discone will work to some degree on 800 Mhz (though not really optimally), so if you are in an area that has a lot of trunk sites around you, it will work for the time being.

Do you need low band (30-50 Mhz) coverage? Discones really aren't the choice here, unless they have a whip in the center.

Start small, then build up. Mike

Thanks for the reply. Yeah I have way too many expensive interests. If I had been investing in RF receiving equipment like I have photography and astronomy I would probably have 4 scanners, 6-8 SDR radios and a 12 antennas on the roof along with an array of electronic hardware for testing and measuring antenna performance. As it is now I have an old Radio Shack 20 channel scanner I've had since I was a teenager, a Radio Shack DX390 SW radio since I was a teenager and a Uniden Bearcat scanner I bought back in 2012-2013 for listening to the police/fire/utilities (I live in Aiken, SC). None have an outside antenna so I got bored with them quickly due to limited or no reception.

I will look into your suggestion of the Omni-X antenna. I would like to be able to receive everything so I get an idea of what is out there then focus in on what I an most interested in, reception wise. Maybe play around with decoding digital signals or something.

I'm not sure if I need low band coverage, I'm not sure what is on 30-50 MHz (amature radio maybe?) From what I have seen, I thought most discone antennas had a whip in the center, a few I saw didn't.

 

[Merovingian]

FWIW, my Diamond NJ130 wideband discone is my everything antenna. I use a directional yagi for my local Ohio MARCS P25 Phase 1 digital simulcast system, as it performs better aimed directly at my closest site, but everything else in my shack is fed by my discone and duplexed out via a Stridsberg 8-port multi-coupler. Couldn't be happier with my Diamond NJ130 discone antenna! If you incorporate one into your system you surely will not be disappointed

JD
kf4anc

I looked at the antenna on Diamond's website, it looks pretty good. I also saw the D3000N, it looks identical to the D130NJ. I wonder if it performs as well as you say the D130NJ does? I will continue reading in any case.

 

[ka3jjz]

As to what's on 30-50 Mhz; yes, hams are from 50-54 Mhz, but there's still quite a few areas (rural) that use VHF lo band for police and fire responses. That's why we need to know where you are; our database is going to guide you as to what your area uses, and you should choose your antenna based on what is used in your area...Mike

 

[Merovingian]

As to what's on 30-50 Mhz; yes, hams are from 50-54 Mhz, but there's still quite a few areas (rural) that use VHF lo band for police and fire responses. That's why we need to know where you are; our database is going to guide you as to what your area uses, and you should choose your antenna based on what is used in your area...Mike

I see. I live in Aiken, SC.

 

[prcguy]

What a coincidence, I'm just upgrading the antenna system for my Icom R-8600 right now and I'm going for continuous and consistent performance from about 100MHz to at least 2.4GHz. To do this it takes at least two Discone antennas and I have a new in box Astron Wireless commercial/military model with 12 disc and 12 cone radials that covers 100MHz on up, then a Maxrad Discone with 14 disc and 14 cone radials that covers about 300Mhz to 2.4GHz. I tested the small Maxrad Discone swapping it with a larger 100-800MHz rated Discone, same mast and coax and the little Maxrad receives about 10dB better in the 800-900Mhz range.

Each Discone will have 6ft of 1/2" Superflex Heliax going to a tower mounted box with a 550Mhz low pass filter then to a preamp for the low freq Discone, then a roughly 750Mhz to several GHz high pass filter and a preamp for the small Discone, then into a diplexer that has a port for 80 through 520MHz and another for 694MHz through 2.7GHz. I don't like using preamps but they are necessary in this case to overcome feedline losses and the input filters will help restrict some spectrum and hopefully keeps the preamps out of trouble . I also have a high quality Bird brand 88-108MHz notch filter that will probably go before the lower freq preamp.

Power for the preamps will be fed up the coax with a bias Tee at the radio end and inside the tower mounted box. I'm about to order two MiniCircuits ZX60-P103LN+ preamps for both the 80-520MHz range and 750MHz to 2.4GHz range. I won't know how they will survive this RF hell until its all put together but I think it has a chance. Most of the coax run will be 1/2" Superflex Heliax first going to one monitoring area, then with a patch cable to another area.

There are higher gain antennas available but none that will give the continous band width and consistent gain I'm looking for. The pictures below show the tower mounted box I'll use and a few of the components that will be inside. The diplexer is really nice and very hard to find at a good price. It has the perfect frequency split in my opinion for combining a typical 100Mhz on up Discone with another antenna to cover the higher ranges.

I placed a 1ft ruler in one picture to show how big the Maxrad Discone is. These are also really hard to find.

I have been interested in RF reception for a long time but it usually takes a backseat to my digital photography and astronomy hobbies. Over the last few years I have been putting my time, attention and especially money into photography and astronomy equipment. I have decided to take a brief rest from that to boost up my radio reception equipment. I have had an Ettus B200 SDR for a few years but didn't use it hardly at all because I have no outside antenna, I bought several small screw on antennas for it but I was only ever able to receive the strongest FM radio stations. I got bored with that and put it away for the last several years. Last week I ordered an SDRPlay RSPduo receiver mainly for receiving shortwave, I'll use it for receiving 1kHz-70MHz and I plan to let my B200 receive it's range of 70MHz-6GHz.

I am planning to buy a Wellbrook ALA1530LN NA active loop antenna to use with my SDRPlay RSPduo and I was thinking of installing some sort of discone antenna for B200 to cover the 70MHz-6GHz frequencies to receive whatever is out there. My problem is at the moment I want to be able to receive everything because I don't know what I want to listen to yet. I would like to listen to civilian aircraft, military aircraft (if any are around), police, fire, ect. . . also amateur radio, satellites (I know that takes a different type of antenna) and other things I don't even know is out there. I've done some reading about discone antennas and it seems I may have to put up two or three antennas to cover the majority of frequencies since the published frequency range of the discones don't really cover what they say they do.

A few years ago I bookmarked a post I read here made by prcguy, I was impressed with his description he gave of his discone antennas he frequently uses.

https://forums.radioreference.com/threads/discone-reception-questions.360388/post-2830913

He stated: "my go to antenna(s), which I'm using right now on my new Icom R-8600 is a a pair of Discones, one covers about 100 to 800Mhz and the other about 400 to 3,200MHz combined with a diplexer with a transition in the 600Mhz range." I would be very interested to know the brand and model of antennas he is using along with the brand and model of diplexer. His setup sounds like it would cover what I would like to listen to.

I have no experience with using all of the various antennas available so I have no idea what antennas would and would not work with what I want to do. I will probably need at least 2 if not 3 antennas to perform decently in the large range of frequencies I want to explore, then trying to use them all on one SDR receiver is another challenge.

At one point I was thinking of a discone with multiple vertical elements tuned for the various frequencies instead of one long whip on top.

View attachment 70611

I don't know if this is useful or useless.

Here is another one with multiple elements
View attachment 70612

I saw this today. It is similar to the first picture.
View attachment 70613
I don't know if any company makes this type or not.

I have heard that this Antennacraft ST2 was a pretty good antenna
View attachment 70615
It is apparently not made anymore.

Prcguy seems to be a super guru in this field, I'm hoping he can pass along some information and I hope anyone else with experience in listening to what is out there can give me some advice on what antennas I can install and what else there is to tune into beyond airplanes and police/utilities.

Thanks in advance to everyone.

 

[crayon]

The diplexer is really nice and very hard to find at a good price.

What would be a "good price" range?

 

[prcguy]

I've been following their used sales for over a year and when they hit $150 or less its good. New they are over $500. These are not Comet or Diamond hammy diplexers.

What would be a "good price" range?

 

[TailGator911]

I looked at the antenna on Diamond's website, it looks pretty good. I also saw the D3000N, it looks identical to the D130NJ. I wonder if it performs as well as you say the D130NJ does? I will continue reading in any case.

Never heard a bad review on a Diamond product. I am not familiar with the 3000. It's the same antenna as the 130 just tuned beyond 1300mhz. The only difference in the 130s are the connectors, one is uhf and the other is an 'n' connector. All Diamond antennas rock.

 

[prcguy]

I might add, the last time I did something like this was for a Hughes Aircraft SDR receiver project in the mid 1980s. I ordered new Kreco Discones, one covering 30 to 240Mhz, one for 100 to 800 and another for higher freqs. I sent the antennas off to the Hughes paint shop where they primed and painted them with the best mil spec paint they had in gloss white. They looked really nice on the roof fed with 1/2" Heliax to junction boxes so the signals could be patched to various areas. I wonder where all that stuff is now?

What a coincidence, I'm just upgrading the antenna system for my Icom R-8600 right now and I'm going for continuous and consistent performance from about 100MHz to at least 2.4GHz. To do this it takes at least two Discone antennas and I have a new in box Astron Wireless commercial/military model with 12 disc and 12 cone radials that covers 100MHz on up, then a Maxrad Discone with 14 disc and 14 cone radials that covers about 300Mhz to 2.4GHz. I tested the small Maxrad Discone swapping it with a larger 100-800MHz rated Discone, same mast and coax and the little Maxrad receives about 10dB better in the 800-900Mhz range.

Each Discone will have 6ft of 1/2" Superflex Heliax going to a tower mounted box with a 550Mhz low pass filter then to a preamp for the low freq Discone, then a roughly 750Mhz to several GHz high pass filter and a preamp for the small Discone, then into a diplexer that has a port for 80 through 520MHz and another for 694MHz through 2.7GHz. I don't like using preamps but they are necessary in this case to overcome feedline losses and the input filters will help restrict some spectrum and hopefully keeps the preamps out of trouble . I also have a high quality Bird brand 88-108MHz notch filter that will probably go before the lower freq preamp.

Power for the preamps will be fed up the coax with a bias Tee at the radio end and inside the tower mounted box. I'm about to order two MiniCircuits ZX60-P103LN+ preamps for both the 80-520MHz range and 750MHz to 2.4GHz range. I won't know how they will survive this RF hell until its all put together but I think it has a chance. Most of the coax run will be 1/2" Superflex Heliax first going to one monitoring area, then with a patch cable to another area.

There are higher gain antennas available but none that will give the continous band width and consistent gain I'm looking for. The pictures below show the tower mounted box I'll use and a few of the components that will be inside. The diplexer is really nice and very hard to find at a good price. It has the perfect frequency split in my opinion for combining a typical 100Mhz on up Discone with another antenna to cover the higher ranges.

I placed a 1ft ruler in one picture to show how big the Maxrad Discone is. These are also really hard to find.View attachment 70624View attachment 70625

 

[Merovingian]

Wow! Thank you for all of the information. I've looked up the other antennas people have recommended and I am in the process of looking up the equipment you have.

I have submitted my information to the Microlab site so I can see their prices but I guess I have to wait until my account is approved, they won't let me login yet. I have also looked up the Astron Wireless website to find the antenna you have, the "VHF/UHF Multiband Single Discone Antennas - MMA 1050" I believe, based on the frequency range you mentioned. They don't have prices on their site either, I'm going to have to email them. . . Now I'm trying to find the website for the Maxrad Discone you have, I haven't found it yet, have they gone out of business?

You sure do have some heavy duty equipment.



This may be getting a lot more expensive than I thought. I still have to buy hardware to mount the antennas to the house, connectors and crimping tools, lightning protection, maybe some amplifiers, the antennas themselves, the diplexer, the HF loop antenna, an antenna rotor for the loop, ect, ect, ect. . . I'll have to find out some prices on some of this an see if I'm going to be ready to pay the price.

What a coincidence, I'm just upgrading the antenna system for my Icom R-8600 right now and I'm going for continuous and consistent performance from about 100MHz to at least 2.4GHz. To do this it takes at least two Discone antennas and I have a new in box Astron Wireless commercial/military model with 12 disc and 12 cone radials that covers 100MHz on up, then a Maxrad Discone with 14 disc and 14 cone radials that covers about 300Mhz to 2.4GHz. I tested the small Maxrad Discone swapping it with a larger 100-800MHz rated Discone, same mast and coax and the little Maxrad receives about 10dB better in the 800-900Mhz range.

Each Discone will have 6ft of 1/2" Superflex Heliax going to a tower mounted box with a 550Mhz low pass filter then to a preamp for the low freq Discone, then a roughly 750Mhz to several GHz high pass filter and a preamp for the small Discone, then into a diplexer that has a port for 80 through 520MHz and another for 694MHz through 2.7GHz. I don't like using preamps but they are necessary in this case to overcome feedline losses and the input filters will help restrict some spectrum and hopefully keeps the preamps out of trouble . I also have a high quality Bird brand 88-108MHz notch filter that will probably go before the lower freq preamp.

Power for the preamps will be fed up the coax with a bias Tee at the radio end and inside the tower mounted box. I'm about to order two MiniCircuits ZX60-P103LN+ preamps for both the 80-520MHz range and 750MHz to 2.4GHz range. I won't know how they will survive this RF hell until its all put together but I think it has a chance. Most of the coax run will be 1/2" Superflex Heliax first going to one monitoring area, then with a patch cable to another area.

There are higher gain antennas available but none that will give the continous band width and consistent gain I'm looking for. The pictures below show the tower mounted box I'll use and a few of the components that will be inside. The diplexer is really nice and very hard to find at a good price. It has the perfect frequency split in my opinion for combining a typical 100Mhz on up Discone with another antenna to cover the higher ranges.

I placed a 1ft ruler in one picture to show how big the Maxrad Discone is. These are also really hard to find.View attachment 70624View attachment 70625

 

[prcguy]

The Microlab diplexer is over $500 new so you have to find them used to get a good price. I missed a few that were under $100 and another at $150 then finally got one in the last couple of weeks for $135. Most any good scanner Discone like a Diamond D3000N would work for the low frequency side and something like a Sirio SD 3000N might be good for the high end if you take the whip off the top.

Astron Wireless probably made my Discone under contract to the Govt, so it may not be a standard production model. Maxrad sold out to somebody else and I have not seen any Discones in their new lineup. If you want top quality consider Kreco, they have a model that goes 100 to 800Mhz although it poops out above about 500Mhz, then they have a 300 to 2400MHz version that can take over above 512Mhz. If I didn't have the two Discones already I would probably buy Kreco versions.
Kreco Antennas - Broadband Antennas

Wow! Thank you for all of the information. I've looked up the other antennas people have recommended and I am in the process of looking up the equipment you have.

I have submitted my information to the Microlab site so I can see their prices but I guess I have to wait until my account is approved, they won't let me login yet. I have also looked up the Astron Wireless website to find the antenna you have, the "VHF/UHF Multiband Single Discone Antennas - MMA 1050" I believe, based on the frequency range you mentioned. They don't have prices on their site either, I'm going to have to email them. . . Now I'm trying to find the website for the Maxrad Discone you have, I haven't found it yet, have they gone out of business?

You sure do have some heavy duty equipment.

View attachment 70631

This may be getting a lot more expensive than I thought. I still have to buy hardware to mount the antennas to the house, connectors and crimping tools, lightning protection, maybe some amplifiers, the antennas themselves, the diplexer, the HF loop antenna, an antenna rotor for the loop, ect, ect, ect. . . I'll have to find out some prices on some of this an see if I'm going to be ready to pay the price.

 

[Merovingian]

The Microlab diplexer is over $500 new so you have to find them used to get a good price. I missed a few that were under $100 and another at $150 then finally got one in the last couple of weeks for $135. Most any good scanner Discone like a Diamond D3000N would work for the low frequency side and something like a Sirio SD 3000N might be good for the high end if you take the whip off the top.

Astron Wireless probably made my Discone under contract to the Govt, so it may not be a standard production model. Maxrad sold out to somebody else and I have not seen any Discones in their new lineup. If you want top quality consider Kreco, they have a model that goes 100 to 800Mhz although it poops out above about 500Mhz, then they have a 300 to 2400MHz version that can take over above 512Mhz. If I didn't have the two Discones already I would probably buy Kreco versions.
Kreco Antennas - Broadband Antennas

Where might I find some of the Microlab diplexers used? eBay I'm guessing?

I'm taking a second look at the Diamond discones now. Does anyone know how tall the D3000N upper half and lower half is? As well as the overall height? I didn't see those measurements on the site, maybe I missed them. I hopefully have room above the roof but below my TV antenna to mount the D3000N if I choose to get it. It doesn't look big but I've seen pictures of others discones that look to be 6-8 feet tall.

How would the Sirio SD 3000N receive any signals without the whip? I would think cutting it shorter would be better.

Thanks again for all of your help.

 

[prcguy]

I shop Ebay for the Microlab diplexers.

A Discone was not designed with a whip and that is a later sales gimmick to add a little low frequency reception at the cost of giving up some high frequency reception. Unless I specifically needed 6m I would take the whip off all Discones. Most scanner type Discones work from about 100Mhz or a little higher to about 800-900MHz. Unfortunately the radiation pattern starts to shift above the horizon about half way through its range, or in the 400-500Mhz range where they are not so good at 800MHz. They still have the same gain but its up in the air somewhere.

That's why I'm using two Discones and using them within the best performing range for each one.

Where might I find some of the Microlab diplexers used? eBay I'm guessing?

I'm taking a second look at the Diamond discones now. Does anyone know how tall the D3000N upper half and lower half is? As well as the overall height? I didn't see those measurements on the site, maybe I missed them. I hopefully have room above the roof but below my TV antenna to mount the D3000N if I choose to get it. It doesn't look big but I've seen pictures of others discones that look to be 6-8 feet tall.

How would the Sirio SD 3000N receive any signals without the whip? I would think cutting it shorter would be better.

Thanks again for all of your help.

 

[KR7CQ]

FWIW, my Diamond NJ130 wideband discone is my everything antenna. I use a directional yagi for my local Ohio MARCS P25 Phase 1 digital simulcast system, as it performs better aimed directly at my closest site, but everything else in my shack is fed by my discone and duplexed out via a Stridsberg 8-port multi-coupler. Couldn't be happier with my Diamond NJ130 discone antenna! If you incorporate one into your system you surely will not be disappointed

JD
kf4anc

These are the best bet in my view for "want to hear it all on a budget but don't want the thing to fall apart the first time a good storm hits it". From a mechanical engineering perspective, they are solidly designed. I have used them for a while on multicouplers with good results. I know that they are less than ideal at 700 MHz (much of what I listen to), but a bit of negative gain (at horizon angle) is fine in my case...needing more signal on the 700 MHz LSM systems I monitor is not an issue and it would probably make matters worse.

Top notch approach there prcguy and I like that you carefully bargain-hunt.

 

[Merovingian]

I shop Ebay for the Microlab diplexers.

A Discone was not designed with a whip and that is a later sales gimmick to add a little low frequency reception at the cost of giving up some high frequency reception. Unless I specifically needed 6m I would take the whip off all Discones. Most scanner type Discones work from about 100Mhz or a little higher to about 800-900MHz. Unfortunately the radiation pattern starts to shift above the horizon about half way through its range, or in the 400-500Mhz range where they are not so good at 800MHz. They still have the same gain but its up in the air somewhere.

That's why I'm using two Discones and using them within the best performing range for each one.

Oh, okay. I never knew the whip was a sales gimmick. So the horizontal rods receive the signal?

I understand a little better now why the two discones. From what I can tell a discone is just a fancy connector with rods at different angles, horizontal and a downward angle. I'm guessing its the length of the horizontal rods that determines the frequency range? Or is there some other special coils or circuitry built into the fancy connector? The ones you use seem to be very expensive, do you know what it is that makes them so expensive?

Thanks once again.

 

[prcguy]

I think if more people use a Diamond D3000 style Discone only up to 512MHz, then supplemented 700/800Mhz with a gain type antenna and a diplexer, the world would be a happier place.

These are the best bet in my view for "want to hear it all on a budget but don't want the thing to fall apart the first time a good storm hits it". From a mechanical engineering perspective, they are solidly designed. I have used them for a while on multicouplers with good results. I know that they are less than ideal at 700 MHz (much of what I listen to), but a bit of negative gain (at horizon angle) is fine in my case...needing more signal on the 700 MHz LSM systems I monitor is not an issue and it would probably make matters worse.

Top notch approach there prcguy and I like that you carefully bargain-hunt.