Transmitting outside the ham bands
- Thread starter mmckenna
- Start date
Modified ham radios can't be used on MARS or CAP frequencies with not meeting the frequency stability or narrow band requirements of the NTIA.
Many years ago used to listen into a MARS VHF radio net in the afternoon. Think it was AF MARS, but it's been a long time to remember. Maybe try to see if any still on VHF. The frequency was just below the ham two band on a 143 frequency and guess that's why these frequencies were used.
Some very old ham two meter transceivers sometimes were able to be used to transmit about 1 MHz below and above the two band to be used for MARS etc. This was way before the narrow banding days.
Many years ago used to listen into a MARS VHF radio net in the afternoon. Think it was AF MARS, but it's been a long time to remember. Maybe try to see if any still on VHF. The frequency was just below the ham two band on a 143 frequency and guess that's why these frequencies were used.
Some very old ham two meter transceivers sometimes were able to be used to transmit about 1 MHz below and above the two band to be used for MARS etc. This was way before the narrow banding days.
dickie757
Wired
For exactly one year, I was the EC for my city. This ended this past fall. It ended bc I dont want to be part of ARRL ****show.
I routinely, as a matter of course, talk to dispatch over RF. I talk to dispatch as I am crawling under their console to re-attach a network cable. I talk to police officers and ask them questions that turn them into regular humans, watching their eyebrows and shoulders move around while they think of an answer to why they decided to change their antenna. I have Battalion Chiefs tell me their radio channel keeps changing.
And finally......I have all the system keys for a hundred mile radius, and none of them are in any of my radios. None of my radios are set up to do non affiliated scanning.
I gave the microphone to an installer to do an op-check. Simple radio test. He said no.
Why wont some of these morons do the same thing, and just says no?
I routinely, as a matter of course, talk to dispatch over RF. I talk to dispatch as I am crawling under their console to re-attach a network cable. I talk to police officers and ask them questions that turn them into regular humans, watching their eyebrows and shoulders move around while they think of an answer to why they decided to change their antenna. I have Battalion Chiefs tell me their radio channel keeps changing.
And finally......I have all the system keys for a hundred mile radius, and none of them are in any of my radios. None of my radios are set up to do non affiliated scanning.
I gave the microphone to an installer to do an op-check. Simple radio test. He said no.
Why wont some of these morons do the same thing, and just says no?
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
I'm in pretty much the same boat. I can talk to our dispatchers directly over talk groups set aside for us non-public safety users. While I have radios for testing the public safety VHF systems as well as ability to come up on the public safety talk groups, I -will- not do that unless I am specifically testing something and I've phoned into dispatch to get clearance from them first.
Driving in my work truck with the radios and I see an accident? I pick up my cell phone and call 911. I do that because (like you) I understand how the system works. I understand the processes that need to happen. Call comes in to a 911 operator that will get my location data. They know exactly what questions to ask to get the information -they- need. I -only- answer those questions when asked. That operator kicks it over to the dispatcher who will choose the right resources to send based off -their- protocol and what resources are avaialble.
Ham operators thinking they get to jump the line and handle dispatching themselves is where their thought process fails. Hams don't know whats going on in the rest of the area. There may be a higher priority incident and an outsider suddenly interrupting them may have unintended consequences. Hams are not dispatchers/911 operators. No reason to pretend they are. Nothing in the ham test/ARRL guide prepares you for being a 911 operator or dispatcher, or to understand how to assign limited resources. Jumping in to the middle of the established protocol can stop others from getting help. Nothing in the 35 question multiple choice test trains hams for that.
Years ago I was at lunch with our PSAP manager. I asked her about the exact scenario that some hams like to use as justification. She had some answers that would absolutely piss them off.
Short answer: Don't do it. Don't pretend you are public safety. Don't pretend you are a dispatcher. Follow the established system. Don't play games. Don't get publicly outed by the FCC and get your story shared on websites like this where we -will- laugh at you.
I do an amount of repairs and testing on all kinds of amplifiers, filters and other things that are terminated with a load on the bench and I use a number of MARS modded ham radios to test them. Nothing illegal about that. I also have a lot of military radios that are wide open across the entire HF range and also VHF/UHF, no mod needed they just transmit everywhere from the factory. I use those within the amateur bands and for receiving public service and mil stuff, nothing illegal about that.
Then there are the countless VHF/UHF/700/800 LMR radios here and I use a number of them under an issued to me NTIA license when and only when performing duties for the Govt agency the NTIA license was issued for. Now that I think about it I probably don't have a single stock non modified amateur radio on the premises.
No, what I said is that the radio would be legal to use in another county, with a reciprocal license, on their amateur frequencies that would be accessible with a modified radio (that was originally sold in the USA) if the band plan was different.
An example of this is in France where voice repeaters reside in the 430.XXX spectrum.
Hope this clears up my original reply.
sloop
Member
Here is another 'rule' worth noting
47CFR 90.427b Precautions against unauthorized operations.
(b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with 90.417, no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the license using the transmitter is not authorized.
(43FR54791, Nov. 22, 1978, as amended at 52 FR 47570, Dec. 15, 1987)
47CFR 90.427b Precautions against unauthorized operations.
(b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with 90.417, no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the license using the transmitter is not authorized.
(43FR54791, Nov. 22, 1978, as amended at 52 FR 47570, Dec. 15, 1987)
MARS has dedicated net frequencies they are allowed to use. the so called MARS mods means transmitting on any HF frequency, Marine, shortwave, and military.
You got your ham ticket, that says you know the rules and allows FCC to revoke your license and pay a whopping fine.
NEVER transmit outside the limits of your license, strong chance you will get busted.
Doesn't matter my mil transmitters go from 1.6 to 30 MHZ and up to 6 KW, I've never done it, save for CB, but nobody cares.
Only have one civi radio with full HF TX, a nice CB radio.
NEVER transmit outside the limits of your license, strong chance you will get busted.
Doesn't matter my mil transmitters go from 1.6 to 30 MHZ and up to 6 KW, I've never done it, save for CB, but nobody cares.
Only have one civi radio with full HF TX, a nice CB radio.
There's nothing stopping radio manufacturers from selling radios in the US that can transmit in FM on 430-440 MHz. I just checked two radios, an Icom and a Yaesu, both sold in the US by authorized US retailers, and they can both transmit in FM down to 430 MHz. No modifications required.
We could have voice repeaters in the 430 MHz part of the spectrum in the US, too. Looks like the only carve-outs are for CW and weak-signal work at 432-433 MHz and satellites at 435-438 MHz. In fact, some repeater coordinating bodies coordinate FM repeater links in the 433-435 and 438-440 MHz segments now.
I think you are saying that US hams might need an modified radio to transmit on the amateur radio bands if they travel to another country. I don't think that's a true statement.
W4AXW
A keeper of the SSB flame
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Most of my Part 90 LMR radios are loaded with receive frequencies for all my local police, fire CHP, etc, but no transmit freqs programmed. Not because of the rule cited above, I just don't want someone else getting ahold of my radios and causing any problems.
Well it ought to be a no brainer, but apparently not.
And apparently as well is with some of the views by those that claim to be "professional radio techs" (in some other threads related to fcc rules)it then becomes no suprise that there would be amateur operators with the same flippiant views, and then the others that are not licensed for anything...well how could one not expect it?
But I also think that this line of not being concerned about following rules is far more widespread in many areas not just radio world.
And apparently as well is with some of the views by those that claim to be "professional radio techs" (in some other threads related to fcc rules)it then becomes no suprise that there would be amateur operators with the same flippiant views, and then the others that are not licensed for anything...well how could one not expect it?
But I also think that this line of not being concerned about following rules is far more widespread in many areas not just radio world.
I used to blame it on the nationwide 55 MPH speed limit that was forced on drivers in the US in the 1970s. I believed that turned us into a nation of scofflaws.
Then I learned more about the Volstead Act (Prohibition). The word "scofflaw" dates back to Prohibition.
Over on QRZ there is talk that the licensee in the Forfeiture Order also holds a Part 90 license for a communication business. If so, he could have tried to claim this rule part. Federal Register :: Request Access
§ 90.407 Emergency communications.
The licensee of any station authorized under this part may, during a period of emergency in which the normal communication facilities are disrupted as a result of hurricane, flood, earthquake or similar disaster, utilize such station for emergency communications in a manner other than that specified in the station authorization or in the rules and regulations governing the operation of such stations. The Commission may at any time order the discontinuance of such special use of the authorized facilities.I don't know if he would be successful or not in reducing or eliminating the fine depending on the details of the situation and what his business and equipment entails.
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If only there were someone who could do something about it.
Exactly.
Token
Member
Same here regardless of the radio used. Yes, even my, _GASP_, MARS/CAP modded ham radios. I program in the PS receive freqs and then program the transmit freqs for some legal, but not used locally, ham freq, at as low a power setting as the radio will allow. If the radio allows it I lock out the TX on that programmed channel. In addition to someone else getting hold of the radio, if I grab the radio and squeeze the mic while it is in scan I don't want to accidentally stop on and throw my callsign out on some PS freq. Man, I have heard that happen to other people more than a few times.
Now, that may seem like the long way around to just making the radio do (sort of) what it did before being modded. I mean most radios receive the same after modding, only the TX is changed. So with most unmodded radios you can program in the PS receive freqs and then the radio will not TX on those freqs anyway...so why mod it?
Why mod it? Because I can. "I'm the kind of guy who wants to sit in a greasy spoon and think, "Gee, should I have the T-bone or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with a side order of gravy fries"? "I wanna run through the streets naked with green Jello all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to." If you get the reference you know what I mean.
Oh, and there are some actual reasons (to modify) for 1 or 2 of my radios (used with transverters), but that is besides the fact. Are all my ham radios modded? No, but probably about half of them are (all of the HF radios are)...and I don't have to defend that to anyone. Are any of them modded because I thought that one day I might "need" to transmit on a PS frequency? Not a one, that concept is just not on my horizon.
T!
I dont think 90.407 applies her at all in no way...
he said (taken from 1st news article in the beginning):
"[A]t no time was I trying to disturb any other communications or air traffic. I was honestly just giving them information I had since I have been working on the butte since the early 90's . . . " wrote Frawley in his October 15, 2021 response to a Letter of Inquiry from FCC Special Counsel Laura Smith.
He was apparently not in danger, and no imminent life or death situation.
he said (taken from 1st news article in the beginning):
"[A]t no time was I trying to disturb any other communications or air traffic. I was honestly just giving them information I had since I have been working on the butte since the early 90's . . . " wrote Frawley in his October 15, 2021 response to a Letter of Inquiry from FCC Special Counsel Laura Smith.
He was apparently not in danger, and no imminent life or death situation.
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