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Trunking Killed by Katrina

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BillTheCat

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Why did it take so long to get things going? Why? Well, a significant part of the problem lies in the actions taken after September 11. It has to do with a total collapse of the communications infrastructure. Forget about having a single individual in command of the situation. With out communication, there cannot be command.

After 9/11, Homeland Security, a new office of the government, decided that communications (radios, etc.) had to be capable of communicating with other departments. The U.S. has spent many billions of dollars to replace all the major police, fire, sheriff, ambulance and other services with 800 MHz Trunking radios all across the country -- including the gulf coast. These use "talk groups" to enable one department to communicate with another department when necessary but can be turned off to keep traffic to a reasonable level. Almost all systems communicate between ground personnel via repeater only. A wonderful idea on paper.

Now, these new radios can only be received by similar radios and usually only via a repeater. However, 800 MHz has other inherent problems. That is it's short range and line-of-sight capabilities. During the early roll-out of the 800 MHz trunking systems, many dead spots were found but during the past year, most of these have been resolved. The solution is to install multiple "repeaters" throughout a region to allow ground personnel to communicate with command or other ground personnel, and yes, even other departments.

Hurricane Katrina wiped out the repeaters and with the inherent limits of short range and line-of-sight and requiring a repeater to function over a large area, all those walkie-talkie radios of the police and fire departments became useless bricks costing over $1000 each.

Enter the Military. They were using old 50 MHz radios as they have used since WWII. Why do they use these? Well, they don't require a repeater for one thing but, they are higher power, lower frequency and capable of transmission over wide areas and varying terrain. Even high-rise buildings don't totally stop their signal. As you watch the news, you'll see the military using these huge and heavy radios with their long antennas. What are they doing? They are COMMUNICATING!

Even the older 150 MHz radios that the police and fire used to use could do better than the new high-technology 800 MHz radios of today. Motorola, E.F. Johnson and others made a mint after Homeland Security required the transition to the new systems and it only took one big storm to show how weak the new system really is.

What did we learn, if anything? Well, for one thing, keep a ready supply of the old low-frequency radios in case of a major disaster - at least you will still be able to communicate. Newer, fancier, smaller, lighter is not always better.

Just my thoughts as I listen to the old radios doing the job that the new ones were designed to do.
 

pfish

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Hurricane Katrina only knocked out three towers that I know of. The state TRS didn't get hurt at all, they never lost communication on the state trs and it is still going on to this minute (I've been running a live stream since katrina hit). The major problem didn't have anything to do with trunking. NOPD lost their communications system and they weren't able to communicate with anyone. They had no way to jump on the state trs and they had no other radios to communicate on lower frequencies. So really, the only problem was with NOPD.

Either way, if everyone wasn't on the same system then there isn't any way to ensure they will always be able to communicate with each other. The only way to ensure they will always be able to communicate is to set up several systems and give every agency radios to work on each system that is set up. A natural disaster like this, there is no way to tell what systems will make it and which will not make it.

I can tell you that the national guard, state police, department of health, red cross, etc didn't have a single problem communicating. NOPD and the national guard were communicating by cb radio and FRS radios.
 

cj5

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Veeeeeeery interesting!

Did the communication break down because a digital-based comm system requires base/repeaters with a technical infrastructure (i.e. computers/servers to process DSP, firewalling hardware for network security, and POWER), that is so heavily dependent on ground-based resources to keep the system up and running? Do CB's/GMR's need that type of centralized system? I would think a decentralized system of radios fits best into an emergency situation of this type. Very curious to know more about how the whole digital radio infrastructure works, also.
 
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pfish

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Yes, that is why it failed. Their towers and buildings survived the hurricane winds, but the flooding got to them. They had to shut the system down and most of the tower ended up under water. Like you said, a decentralized system is the best thing for an emergency situation. The only problem could be communicating with someone a long ways away. You will need a repeater then.
 

kikito

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cj5 said:
Did the communication break down because a digital-based comm system requires base/repeaters with a technical infrastructure....

The problem is not about the system being trunked, digital or anything. I think it has more to do with the whole infrastruture i.e. building, antennas, electronics, generator, etc. being knocked down or under water from the hurricane. So even an analog conventional system would've had the same problem.

They can use simplex "de-centralized" communications with the same radios from the system that's down, which is what they might be using right now but it won't get too far without repeaters, etc.

Anyway, the communications problems they're having probably have more to do with poor planning and implementation of their communication systems and NOT to be blamed to any particular platform i.e. digital, trunked, etc.
 

cj5

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lesson learned

Well, maybe it would be better to place the infrastructure on higher floors, reinforce relaying systems, and making a better backup system. As with any large infrastructure, there's always a backup system. I mean really, in New Orleans they bury their dead above ground. You'd think they would have the sense enough to place their base systems higher. Just a thought. As far as distance is concerned: I was listening to the USCG USB transmissions (5696 kHz, 8983 kHz, 11202 kHz USB) based in FL or CA, that were used to coordinate take-offs and landing in and out of the hurricane-hit area. That's quite some distance, and not necessarily based on a complex infrastructure. The USCG (as well as other mil-services) use mobile comm units, which are more than capable of taking temporary place of the normal land-based repeaters and base units. Sometimes the simplest answer is the best solution. see: http://www.radioreference.com/wiki/index.php/Hurricane_Katrina#HF_Operations
 
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remedy44

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Take a real close look at this picture you will see the backup generator up off the ground and
i dont think i need to explain the rest
 

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Al42

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Long Island, NY, USA
cj5 said:
Well, maybe it would be better to place the infrastructure on higher floors
Huge, heavy generators are usually placed on the ground. In this case they were fed by gas - not gasoline, gas. The pipeline system broke, so no gas to the generators, so no electricity, so no repeaters. Even if the generators weren't flooded. (They're usually mounted a few feet above ground.)

reinforce relaying systems, and making a better backup system.
That costs money. Communications isn't a terribly sexy subject, or a high-visibility area (except during an emergency, when its lack is blamed for all sorts of problems), so it suffers from "funds-are-low" disease.

Just a thought. As far as distance is concerned: I was listening to the USCG USB transmissions (5696 kHz, 8983 kHz, 11202 kHz USB) based in FL or CA, that were used to coordinate take-offs and landing in and out of the hurricane-hit area. That's quite some distance, and not necessarily based on a complex infrastructure.
Not something a cop could carry on his belt, or in the average patrol car, either.

The USCG (as well as other mil-services) use mobile comm units, which are more than capable of taking temporary place of the normal land-based repeaters and base units.
There are mobile towers, mobile generators and mobile dispatch offices. All that's needed is 1) money, 2) the determination of politicians to spend it on something as "useless" as this and 3) regular drills with the equipment (like the NO official in charge of communications "pulling the plug" on the PD or FD system unannounced every so often).
 

BillTheCat

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There's no denying that when the electricity goes out, the towers blow over and the base operations get flooded that the system will be down however, low-band 50 MHz is much better able to communicate long distances without the need for much of this. The idea being that these radios function quite well over large areas and difficult terrain. That's why the military still uses them so much. They work and are reliable

There were no repeaters in Viet Nam, Iraq and such for them to rely on but they did require communications. The point being, use what works and when the infrastructure is dead, UHF is not the right tool for the job (AM, FM, Dig, trunked or not). Sure, these radios are big and bulky and heavy but, they do get the job done.
 

John_M

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BillTheCat Wrote:

Enter the Military. They were using old 50 MHz radios as they have used since WWII. Why do they use these? Well, they don't require a repeater for one thing but, they are higher power, lower frequency and capable of transmission over wide areas and varying terrain. Even high-rise buildings don't totally stop their signal. As you watch the news, you'll see the military using these huge and heavy radios with their long antennas. What are they doing? They are COMMUNICATING!

Even the older 150 MHz radios that the police and fire used to use could do better than the new high-technology 800 MHz radios of today. Motorola, E.F. Johnson and others made a mint after Homeland Security required the transition to the new systems and it only took one big storm to show how weak the new system really is.

What did we learn, if anything? Well, for one thing, keep a ready supply of the old low-frequency radios in case of a major disaster - at least you will still be able to communicate. Newer, fancier, smaller, lighter is not always better.

Good point, this is a prime example. When Homeland Security started giving out grants for these new systems to better communicate during a disaster they didn't think what would happen if the systems towers and repeaters were incapcitated by a storm or bomb. DHS should go back to the drawing board and spend some money on contracting a company to upgrade the big heavy handheld units that the military uses. Or come up with a solution to communicate when these towers and repeaters are incapcitated.
 
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PhilBurks

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Mar 17, 2003
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Location
Tyler, Texas, USA
The well designed systems that we've encountered around the globe use a replicated, centralized structure. The networks connecting everything are star topology so that any multiple paths can go down and it will still function. If the main NOC goes away, there is an alternate many miles away. Dispatch centers are hardened and duplicated. Yes, it costs money, lots of money. But it works incredibly well. I'm appauled at the following (read and then I'll comment below)...

{{ "Blanco told Bush that the radio system that is currently operational in the greater New Orleans area was designed to support 800 users; there are currently 2500 users. To address the radio communications requirements, we need additional frequencies: 25 800 MHz trunking repeaters, tower crews, 1,000 portable radios [and] three 100-foot tower trailers. "}}

NO has over 500,000 in the city with over 1.3 mil. in the metro area. How in the world did their main system get into this shape where the have too few frequencies, too little equipment, and the list goes on??? This problem did not happen over night! My guess is that the city never allocated the money to get it into shape to handle things like this disaster.

Old low band radios DO cover a lot of territory. They also pick up a lot of stray noise. They don't carry data to do criminal checks, license checks and all of the modern policing things. Threy don't do GPS and they take up a lot of room (comparatively speaking). We all need to wait a bit before we start coming down hard doing the blame game. But I predict that in the area of communications, it will be shown that money went for more welfare tasks and rarely made it into improving the city and parish communications network.
 

brucewarming

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Jun 23, 2004
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445
Location
Martinsburg WV.
My short answer to it all seems to be the same answer that the State police (most) use- alot of different radios on different bands. Including the CB. Redundency
 
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