Itinerant License

[otobmark]

Youth organization reached out to me about comms/radios for use during their multiple summer camps. I have requested much more information but for now what I know is that they lease camp campuses by the week (they don’t own properties themselves), need several mile (?) coverage, poor cellular, FRS was a fail and locations may change year to year. I welcome equipment thoughts though for the moment I’m focused on licensing issues for what will surely be an itinerant situation. I’m far removed from the business side of LMR and licensing. What is available? I’d prefer digital for many reasons and portable repeater(s) would seem unavoidable. ( I do wonder if camp owners would be interested in having a system themselves?)

So, itinerant repeated digital.
For a “not year round” use I’m not sure they should be buying. They have school year events which could benefit from simplex comms probably. Obviously they don’t have “government “ size money (I might donate the system if my modeling career doesn’t tank😐).

 

[tweiss3]

NXR-1800E and NX-1800 are pretty darn affordable. I'm certain a year's rental costs would be darn close, if not exceed a rental from some of the bigger guys.

 

[dryfb]

NXR-1800E and NX-1800 are pretty darn affordable. I'm certain a year's rental costs would be darn close, if not exceed a rental from some of the bigger guys.

I was gonna say NX1300s for portables lol, or 1200s if VHF would work better.

Youth organization reached out to me about comms/radios for use during their multiple summer camps. I have requested much more information but for now what I know is that they lease camp campuses by the week (they don’t own properties themselves), need several mile (?) coverage, poor cellular, FRS was a fail and locations may change year to year. I welcome equipment thoughts though for the moment I’m focused on licensing issues for what will surely be an itinerant situation. I’m far removed from the business side of LMR and licensing. What is available? I’d prefer digital for many reasons and portable repeater(s) would seem unavoidable. ( I do wonder if camp owners would be interested in having a system themselves?)
So, itinerant repeated digital.
For a “not year round” use I’m not sure they should be buying. They have school year events which could benefit from simplex comms probably. Obviously they don’t have “government “ size money (I might donate the system if my modeling career doesn’t tank😐).

Digital is fine on itinerants, and there are repeated itinerants (afaik, if not correct me). I think there's a class (like FB2 type of class) for VRSs so you could possibly get a coordinated license that covers what you need but itinerants would probably be cheaper.

 

[tweiss3]

I was gonna say NX1300s for portables lol, or 1200s if VHF would work better.

I don't believe there is Itinerant VHF usage, I do remember reading 2W ht, 5W repeater itinerant pairs.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I have itinerant pairs on both VHF and UHF. VHF isn't common to see that so it tends to be fairly uncontested unlike 464.0000 and 464.5000. So I would say a NXDN VHF solution would be pretty good. If the facility has a ropes course, that would be a pretty prime location for a simple tactical repeater system.

 

[clbsquared]

I don't believe there is Itinerant VHF usage, I do remember reading 2W ht, 5W repeater itinerant pairs.

Yes, you can license VHF for itinerant use. It’s quite common in my region.

 

[tweiss3]

Yes, you can license VHF for itinerant use. It’s quite common in my region.

I should re-read what I'm typing up. I meant VHF itinerant repeater pairs like the 47 CFR 90.267(f)(5) uncoordinated nationwide UHF repeater pairs.

Yes, if you are going repeaters, UHF, if not VHF.

 

[mmckenna]

NXR-1800E and NX-1800 are pretty darn affordable. I'm certain a year's rental costs would be darn close, if not exceed a rental from some of the bigger guys.

I've been running some NXR-1800's for about 6 months now at a very remote site, and I'm really happy with them. The remote access web interface is pretty nice since I can check the system without making the 3+ hour drive to the site. With a reliable IP connection, you can link repeaters. Build the repeaters in a fly away case so they can move them around as needed. Plug-n-play as long as they don't knock the duplexers too far out of alignment.

Been using the NX-1300's for about 2 years now, and they are working well. Price is right for applications where the end user may not be as careful with the radio as they should be.

Sounds like the right application for itinerant frequencies.

I'd talk to the camp owners and see if a shared cost would make sense. But permanent and itinerant really don't jive.

 

[otobmark]

So the answer is yes, it can be done. I figured if NASCAR and PGA can roam the country with extensive setups then it must be possible but at what cost/difficulty. If limited to 5 watts for subscribers and repeaters it would be possible if not ideal. Most camps are rural, at least here in the south. Linked field repeaters would be nice and could be done by RF (ubiquity, beamed wifi etc). I had a cashe of FRS radios for command center use (we use apps on wifi networks now) that I loaned out to a similar group of radio ignorant volunteers and staff and they came back looking like they had been through fire and explosions. I couldn't imagine the contempt shown them. I had no real future use for them so I wasn't really "OUT" so much as bewildered by what happened to the gear and the mentality behind it. Public safety is only marginally better, especially with vehicles. I'd like to tether the gear to a locked on collar so when they mistreated it they would get a few thousand volts! I come from a generation that took better care of other's stuff than out own.

I will reappear here when I have more information (budget, number of radios, terrain etc). I'll investigate NX1800 and others.
Good info all! Thanks for not ridiculing my blind spot..

 

[mmckenna]

So the answer is yes, it can be done. I figured if NASCAR and PGA can roam the country with extensive setups then it must be possible but at what cost/difficulty. If limited to 5 watts for subscribers and repeaters it would be possible if not ideal.

I've got some UHF itinerants at work, and they are 35 watts. If all you are using is 5 watt portables, then a 10 watt repeater would be plenty. As you know, the antenna makes a bigger difference than the power.

I will reappear here when I have more information (budget, number of radios, terrain etc). I'll investigate NX1800 and others.
Good info all! Thanks for not ridiculing my blind spot..

NXR-1800 is the repeater. You can get them analog only pretty cheap. Or, you can add NXDN -or- DMR. IP linking is an extra cost option. Mine are on mountain tops, solar powered, and due to space constraints, flat pack duplexers. At 10 watts, they pull a bit over 4 amps on TX and about 700ma on idle.

NX-1800 is a mobile.
NX-1300 is the portable

Mobiles and portables can be purchased as analog only, analog + NXDN or analog + DMR. Since it sounds like this won't have much traffic, 6.25KHz NXDN would give you a bit more range.

 

[nokones]

I don't believe there is Itinerant VHF usage, I do remember reading 2W ht, 5W repeater itinerant pairs.

There are licensed VHF FB2I and MOI with 50 and 60 watts stations for Nationwide use with both analog and DMR emissions.

 

[N4DES]

Here is a license for one of our local scout camps, as an example, that has both VHF and UHF on a nationwide license.
They do not have any digital in the emissions or FB2I, but you can if you want to.

ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Conventional License - WQTT501 - Gulf Stream Council - Aal-Pa-Tah Lodge #237

 

[otobmark]

How long does the licensing process take? I’m making this up as I go but I’d think 1 pair and a few simplex. Only reason for more would be to have an alternate if you landed somewhere already using your primary.

More info—minimum of 10 radios and max of 20. This assumes they aren’t running 2 camps simultaneously which has happened. Locations can change from year to year. They definitely need “convoy” comms and other on the move situations. 2 camps this summer are in range of nxdn FleetTalk site. No idea subscription terms or rates especially for such short time. Local power company donated site access to FleetTalk in exchange for service. Civic minded group so they might get us a few weeks of gratis service. Long shot. Doesn’t solve long term needs. Will probably need transportable repeater, electric power options and 50’ mast system (I get ill thinking about flatpack mobile duplexers). I can probably acquire radios piecemeal to save money for solid repeater system. Still the nxdn vs DMR quandary. I have a spare DMR repeater and duplexer (4 cavity bandpass full size). Bulky. I can’t picture any of the people I’ve met so far analyzing and setting up at a new site. My availability is unreliable. If they do poor execution then all is for nothing. I’m starting to talk myself out of this…
When I return from DC I’ll go at it again.

 

[mmckenna]

I was able to get 4 simplex UHF channels coordinated and licensed in about a month. Itinerant should be faster since you don't need to coordinate.

I'd stick with either analog or NXDN unless you know you need the extra capacity of DMR. I've found that giving non-radio types more than one channel to select is asking for problems. Someone will -always- be on the wrong channel/slot/talkgroup, and it will be your fault. Always. The ideal radio in these situations is one programmed with the exact same channel in every knob position and set all the extra buttons to do absolutely nothing. It'll save you headaches in the long run. No matter how hard you try, there are those that won't be able to master the on/off/volume knob and "Push to talk, release to listen" is really asking too much.

But, I agree with your last statement. There really isn't a way to make a portable set up like this 'foolproof'. They'll just invent a better fool. It'll be a support challenge unless you have someone you can train to fill in for you.

 

[mmckenna]

Sometimes it really is easier to rely on a WiFi based radio system, or look at LTE solutions, if you have sufficient coverage.

 

[AM909]

I've had a similar FB2 + 5xMO license pending at the FCC for over 3 weeks now. I wonder if it's related to the current federal employment turbulence.

The NXR-1800 is a nice form-factor for this purpose.

We've plenty of the NX-1300 in this type of outdoors use (and worse) and they survive pretty well. Just make sure to keep the accessory jack cover or the retaining clip secure – that's the primary weak point for FOD.

50 foot mast seems challenging. Probably not going to clear the canopy anyway, so 20-30 feet might be more manageable.

As much as we might despise flat-packs, they are designed for mobile use and it would seem are more likely to stay tuned than larger duplexers that have more space between fasteners and therefore more likelihood of movement of components and flexing of resonators. Probably worth paying up for the name-brand flat-packs, though, instead of the cheap Chinese products.

 

[nokones]

My EMR Corp duplexer has been a great unit. The VSWRs are still good so I am assuming the duplexer is still in tune. I don't have the ability to check the tune.

I have 39 watts going in and approx 28-29 coming out and with the antenna tip 30 feet above ground level I can communicate with the repeater using a XTS5000 portable with 5 watts output about 12-15 miles away as the desert buzzard would fly over essentially flat terrain.

 

[AM909]

WIth a notch duplexer, the notches can move away from where they need to be while still presenting a reasonable SWR and loss. The poor-man's way to check is the de-sense test, requiring a local speaker on the repeater and ability to inhibit its transmitter. Listen to a weak signal on the repeater's local speaker with the repeater TX inhibited. Then, enable the repeater TX and see if the signal sounds weaker (or the squelch closes). If no change, you're somewhere near being tuned. This is a good test even after a proper sweep/track tuning, just to make sure you put everything back together correctly.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

151.5125/158.4075 and 151.7000/158.4000 are valid itinerant pairs. Mine are licensed for 60 MO at 35W and 2 FB2I at 20W.

 

[nokones]

151.5125/158.4075 and 151.7000/158.4000 are valid itinerant pairs. Mine are licensed for 60 MO at 35W and 2 FB2I at 20W.

My itinerant freqs, 151.700, 151.760, and 154.5275 are licensed for 60 MO at 35 watts and my 151.505, 151.5125, and 151.625, 158.400, and 158.4075 are licensed for 60 MO at 50 watts with analog and digital voice emissions. I thought about adding the FB2I station class, but I really don't see a need to use of a repeater at this time.