Trunking question

[Canguy]

Sorry guys but I’m new here. I figured this would be the best place to get answers.
So here goes. I have absolutely no knowledge of this and how it works.
My son buys radios and programs them as scanners and then sells them. He has been doing this for a couple of years now with no problems. He programs Motorola radios that have been purchased online and from police auctions. Obviously he has the knowledge and the software to do this. From what he has told me the radios that he sells is just for listening only if you key the mic it only beeps and doesn’t transmit to where you can talk. So the other day the police show up at my door to talk with him. He has an ad up on marketplace and I’m assuming that’s how they found him. Apparently there is someone out there with a scanner/radio that is keying up on the police and knocking their whole system out where they cannot communicate at all. This is obviously very bad. Anyway they came and talked to him asked about how he programs his radios and who he has sold to and what counties he has programmed. There was 2 detectives and they were on the phone with their radio guy. They asked him if he had trunking software and that it’s a felony to possess this. They also want him to send them a copy of his software so they can look at it. Idk if he has trunking software or not. They said that he wasn’t in trouble they just want to know who he has sold his radios to cause obviously they want to track down the guy knocking out their system.
First they have no proof that it was his radio. They are just fishing.
Second like I said before he programs them so you cannot talk into it you need a key to change it.
Is there any advice that you guys can give me? Does he need an attorney? And if so what kind of attorney?
Should he give up his software or see if they come with a warrant to take it anyway?
Sorry this was so long but a lot hit all at once and not knowing about any of this is really confusing.

 

[KevinC]

Is there any advice that you guys can give me?

Yes, stop doing it.

Does he need an attorney?

Yes.

And if so what kind of attorney?

Criminal and possible a good IP attorney.

 

[mmckenna]

First off:
This is a hobby radio site. Ask questions, but understand this isn't the source for legal advice. There are a few of us on this site that run public safety radio systems professionally and can give you some information, but ultimately you should probably be talking to an attorney.

First they have no proof that it was his radio. They are just fishing.

OK. I'd let them fish.

Second like I said before he programs them so you cannot talk into it you need a key to change it.

So, red flag in your statement.
The term "Key" in the world of professional radio systems means just that, a key.

If your son is programming radios to listen only on trunked radio systems, it may require an electronic key.
That electronic key is what allows the radio to be programmed to hear trunked radio systems. Those of us in the industry do not give out system keys. They are closely guarded because they are just like a key to your house. Anyone holding that key can open the door.
Doesn't matter if he is programming the radios to work on a trunked radio system and is setting the talk groups to receive only, the radio can still transmit if it is not set up correctly. This gets complex and it's very easy to mess up.
It is entirely possible that the radios are 'affiliating' with the radio system, even if programmed for receive only. That can result in resources getting used up in the system, taking service away from legitimate users, and a host of other issues.

Possession of a system key is a legal issue, no matter how it's used. Explaining why your son has a key to a system that is not his will be difficult.

If this is not involving a trunked radio system, and he's just using a password to protect the programming, that's a different matter.

Is there any advice that you guys can give me?

This is a hobby radio site, not a source for legal advice. You need professional legal advice.

Does he need an attorney?

Maybe, but if it was me, I'd at least spend the money to talk to one and get some legal advice that you can rely on and is accurate for your specific location.

And if so what kind of attorney?

That could be quite complex. Most attorneys will have no idea what any of this is. Finding an attorney that understands communications systems like this is going to be difficult. Maybe start with someone that can just give you some accurate advice would be a good idea. They can help you talk with the police.

Should he give up his software or see if they come with a warrant to take it anyway?

I'm not going to say anything about waiting for or not waiting for a warrant.

If it was me/my son, I'd come clean and lay everything out. i wouldn't play games with this. A good attorney can advise you.

What I would suggest is that he turns off that computer and doesn't touch it. Deleting any files isn't going to look good, and if they start diving into this, their forensic people will likely find it.
I'd also tell my son to not program, sell or ship any radios until this is figured out. Since we don't know exactly what kind of radio systems were involved, we don't know if he was doing it correctly.

Sorry this was so long but a lot hit all at once and not knowing about any of this is really confusing.

This can be very complex in technical nature, and there's a lot of wrong ways to program radios. It's easy to make a mistake if he does not fully understand how complex trunked radio systems work.

Good luck, you've got a lot ahead of you….

 

[Canguy]

Thank you all for your advice. I’m at a loss on where to go from here. He is a very smart kid in his early twenties and has a great job through the state. I’m just worried that if anything happens that he can possibly lose his job if they charge him. We did tell him to stop programming and selling until it’s all figured out. Also told him if he deletes the software off his computer and they take it that they will find it and that it can be worse for him. I know he doesn’t give his key out to anyone. I know that they are just fishing and have no proof that it was one of his they just found his ad and came asking questions. You all are more knowledgeable on this than I am. I was just asking about what kind of lawyer he would need obviously there aren’t many that deal with this.
Again thank you for your help and if anyone can point me in the right direction for someone to talk to that would be great.

 

[ofd8001]

First, programming radios that have the capability to transmit, even if that is disabled/turned off/deactivated, is very risky and dangerous for many reasons.

Back before SDS scanners came around, using surplus radios was about the only way of reliably decoding simulcast radio systems. Now that SDS scanners or Unication receivers have come about, that is a whole lot better option for listening.

if he had trunking software and that it’s a felony to possess this

I'd be interested in reading the Statute/Code that says this. If anyone can cite the source for this. . .

 

[mmckenna]

I'd be interested in reading the Statute/Code that says this. If anyone can cite the source for this. . .

There isn't. At least not in the USA.

System key, that's probably going to be a different story.

 

[beaker7]

As others have said, this isn't legal advice but know that this is getting into some questionable waters.
What it sounds like he is doing is programming radios for non-affiliate scan or NAS. This is a hot topic due to the ease of misconfiguration that can land you in very hot water and a piece of the software needed for NAS is considered to be illegal to own.

Modern trunked radio systems act similar to cell phone networks now a days, when a radio user turns on their radio it listens for a "control channel" and then the radio phones home to the system, the system then sends back an authorization confirming the radio is affiliated. For NAS there is a certain way that a radio can be setup to not send this "phone home" message, BUT there's a couple of catches.

Issue A: The software needed to program said radios is not illegal for everyday people to own (once again not legal advice) HOWEVER this software needs a key to allow it to program a trunked radio system. The software that generates the key (and/or the keys it generates) is generally considered to be restricted, that's where you might tend to get into IP (intellectual property) law issues.

Issue B: All police/fire/etc trunked systems exist within a section of the electromagnetic frequency spectrum that you will not be allowed to transmit in because you are not licensed or authorized to transmit in it. Listen all you want sure but not transmit. Even this "phone home" message the radio sends in less than a second has the ability to violate the law. As said earlier the radio can be programmed to not send this phone home, so you'd think that you'd be in the clear. The issue is that you do not need this special key or key generation software to reprogram the radio to be able to allow the radio to phone home, affiliate with the system, and then be transmitting on frequencies and systems you're not allowed to (Once the radio has been setup for NAS you generally only need the unrestricted CPS software to make changes that would allow you to transmit).

only if you key the mic it only beeps and doesn’t transmit to where you can talk.

By key I'm going to assume you mean press the PTT (Push to Talk) button. Theres a few different beeps that can happen that could cause issues with the situation. If it's one solid beep that continues as long as you hold the button that generally means NAS was configured correctly.
If its a set of 3 or 4 beeps that's really bad since it would likely mean the radio is not only affiliated with the system but is talking into the system on some channel/talkgroup.

They asked him if he had trunking software and that it’s a felony to possess this.

Kinda hit this in an earlier part, the software (aka CPS Consumer Programming Software) is not illegal to possess. The software needed to generate a key that is then loaded into the CPS to program a trunked radio system is generally considered intellectual property which would be illegal for your typical person to own.


If little Timmy wanted to use the normal CPS software to program his radio to talk to his friends on those radios you can buy at walmart thats one thing, but when you start talking about programming non-affiliate scanning of a police/fire/etc thats where you can get into real trouble (Conventional vs Trunked radio operation/programming).

I know this is a lot of information and it's only a small slice, this is why people everywhere tend to recommend avoiding NAS or even scanning of non-trunked (aka conventional) systems with commercial radios (ie Motorola) and just buying something like a Uniden Scanner. There are other ways that he could be scanning that are not NAS but it certainly seems the most likely from what you're describing. Again... None of this is legal advice but hopefully this will give you a better idea of what to look for or talk to your son about.

 

[Canguy]

As others have said, this isn't legal advice but know that this is getting into some questionable waters.
What it sounds like he is doing is programming radios for non-affiliate scan or NAS. This is a hot topic due to the ease of misconfiguration that can land you in very hot water and a piece of the software needed for NAS is considered to be illegal to own.

Modern trunked radio systems act similar to cell phone networks now a days, when a radio user turns on their radio it listens for a "control channel" and then the radio phones home to the system, the system then sends back an authorization confirming the radio is affiliated. For NAS there is a certain way that a radio can be setup to not send this "phone home" message, BUT there's a couple of catches.

Issue A: The software needed to program said radios is not illegal for everyday people to own (once again not legal advice) HOWEVER this software needs a key to allow it to program a trunked radio system. The software that generates the key (and/or the keys it generates) is generally considered to be restricted, that's where you might tend to get into IP (intellectual property) law issues.

Issue B: All police/fire/etc trunked systems exist within a section of the electromagnetic frequency spectrum that you will not be allowed to transmit in because you are not licensed or authorized to transmit in it. Listen all you want sure but not transmit. Even this "phone home" message the radio sends in less than a second has the ability to violate the law. As said earlier the radio can be programmed to not send this phone home, so you'd think that you'd be in the clear. The issue is that you do not need this special key or key generation software to reprogram the radio to be able to allow the radio to phone home, affiliate with the system, and then be transmitting on frequencies and systems you're not allowed to (Once the radio has been setup for NAS you generally only need the unrestricted CPS software to make changes that would allow you to transmit).


By key I'm going to assume you mean press the PTT (Push to Talk) button. Theres a few different beeps that can happen that could cause issues with the situation. If it's one solid beep that continues as long as you hold the button that generally means NAS was configured correctly.
If its a set of 3 or 4 beeps that's really bad since it would likely mean the radio is not only affiliated with the system but is talking into the system on some channel/talkgroup.

Kinda hit this in an earlier part, the software (aka CPS Consumer Programming Software) is not illegal to possess. The software needed to generate a key that is then loaded into the CPS to program a trunked radio system is generally considered intellectual property which would be illegal for your typical person to own.


If little Timmy wanted to use the normal CPS software to program his radio to talk to his friends on those radios you can buy at walmart thats one thing, but when you start talking about programming non-affiliate scanning of a police/fire/etc thats where you can get into real trouble (Conventional vs Trunked radio operation/programming).

I know this is a lot of information and it's only a small slice, this is why people everywhere tend to recommend avoiding NAS or even scanning of non-trunked (aka conventional) systems with commercial radios (ie Motorola) and just buying something like a Uniden Scanner. There are other ways that he could be scanning that are not NAS but it certainly seems the most likely from what you're describing. Again... None of this is legal advice but hopefully this will give you a better idea of what to look for or talk to your son about.

Thank you that helps a lot even if I don’t understand it. I will show this to him as he has more knowledge than I do

 

[KevinC]

I think the OP has been given enough information and this won't be resolved here anyway. Closing.