Unknown P25 Traffic in the Capital Region

[LathamScan]

Hello all,

I have recently stumbled across two different frequencies that I believe are running P25 TRS Control Channel data at 3600 baud. The frequencies are:

152.5025 MHz. (stronger in Latham)

152.7125 MHz. (weaker in Latham)

Now, I don't have a P25 receiver so I can't find anything out about these channels. However, I am sure that some of you out there with P25 receivers may be able to figure out what the deal is with some of these channels.

Kevin

 

[KB1JHU]

After checking the FCC DB for those and adjacent frequencies in Albany, Rensselaer, Schenectady, and Saratoga County, it seems that what you are hearing is probably paging and not a control channel.

 

[UPMan]

Further, there is no such thing as "P25 Control Channel at 3600 Baud."

 

[LathamScan]

Well, I can certainly confirm that it is not paging, or at least any type of paging format that I have ever come across.

It is on the air continuously, which made me think it was a control channel of some type. I guess it could be a mobile data network system of some type.

I had also thought that on the VHF band, P25 was 3600 (or 3200 baud, I can't exactly remember) because 9600 baud exceeds the authorized bandwith.

Kevin

 

[Thunderknight]

I hear it also...and it does seem to be on the center frequencies you listed. I checked the ULS for New York, Vermont, Mass and New Hampshire and didn't see anything.
(First thing that popped in my head was New Hampshire State Police which is P25...that tends to blast in here from time to time).

Doesn't sound like paging to me either.

I need an outside antenna to hear it also...and I'm near Kevin.

I might buy a Pro-2096 tonight...so if I do, I'll check it again

 

[DaveNF2G]

Can't hear anything from Averill Park. [grumble]

 

[LathamScan]

I did some more searching around and on Saturday 3-15-08 I was able to log a lot more of these frequencies with continuous digital traffic. Here's the current list:

151.970

152.0525

152.2025

152.5025

152.5175

152.6375

152.7125

152.7425

Now, I did some real in-depth research into these frequencies and found that New York State Electric & Gas have licenses on 151.970, and also on the 152 MHz. spectrum for sites around the Capital Region. The closest is Birch Hill in Hebron (Washington County). Each frequency has a different signal strength, however with some very strong and some very weak.

I also stand corrected with the P25 baud rate. It isn't 3600 baud like I thought. It comes in 4800 baud and 9600 baud 'flavors'. Listening to Colonie's control channel (which is 9600 baud) tells me that if these are P25, they must be at the slower 4800 baud rate.

Does anyone know if NYSEG is implementing a VHF P25 TRS?

Kevin

 

[studgeman]

P25 Phase 1 Control Channels come in only ONE flavor. Now I can't remember which one is which, but it is either 9600 BAUD and 4800 Bits Per Second, or the other way around. BAUD and bps are NOT the same.

And yes what you are hearing in NYSEG, they bought up several chuncks of 152 spectrum around the state for their new P25 radio system which motorola's contractors have been installing.

 

[DaveNF2G]

Will it be trunked or just a set of P25 repeaters like National Grid is using?

 

[studgeman]

Its actually trunked, 3 or 4 channels per site from what i can tell. The reason it is trunked vs. conventional is the ability for a trunked system to handle more data.

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

CT Light and Power uses EDACS SCAT for data. These are basically one channel trunked radio sites. http://www.macom-wireless.com/products/pve/datasheets/4573.pdf

You mention 4800 and 9600 baud data rates which are the two data rates EDACS uses.

73 Eric

 

[studgeman]

Thanks for the info. This is defiantly P25 though. P25 is 4800 BAUD and 9600bps, which equates to 2 bits per symbol. NYSEG has the contract with Motorola and I know the Motorola shop doing most of the integration for this system.

 

[DaveNF2G]

Yes, it is P25 trunked. I have just started watching one of the control channels with PRO96COM. So far, only 3 of the 8 frequencies have been announced by this particular controller. The CWID is a bit odd - it sends "AUS."

I have started a thread under the Digital/P25 Forum with a question about the way this system operates. The title of the thread is "Multiple Tables Transmitted?"

 

[DaveNF2G]

I think I figured out why it IDs as "AUS" - it's not licensed!

I just went through all of NYSEG's listings on the FCC ULS. There are no trunking sites licensed for the Capital District except for one in Clifton Park and another in Hoosick, but they are not on the frequencies being monitored here.

There are also no pending applications from NYSEG for trunking licenses.

Hmm.....

Don't the shops have to confirm that there is a license before firing up the transmitters?

 

[jkm]

I did some more searching around and on Saturday 3-15-08 I was able to log a lot more of these frequencies with continuous digital traffic. Here's the current list:

151.970

152.0525

152.2025

152.5025

152.5175

152.6375

152.7125

152.7425

Now, I did some real in-depth research into these frequencies and found that New York State Electric & Gas have licenses on 151.970, and also on the 152 MHz. spectrum for sites around the Capital Region. The closest is Birch Hill in Hebron (Washington County). Each frequency has a different signal strength, however with some very strong and some very weak.

I also stand corrected with the P25 baud rate. It isn't 3600 baud like I thought. It comes in 4800 baud and 9600 baud 'flavors'. Listening to Colonie's control channel (which is 9600 baud) tells me that if these are P25, they must be at the slower 4800 baud rate.

Does anyone know if NYSEG is implementing a VHF P25 TRS?

Kevin

Hello to all,

I was out in western Massachusetts last week and was talking with a friend in Pittsfield who was asking me about these data transmitters, which he said have just recently been popping up everywhere. I was curious about where they were, so I went on a DFing trip to see what I could find. I took the one that was strongest in Pittsfield (152.0525) and tracked it down to this location:

42.30619 N, 73.49094 (Austerlitz Mountain, Austerlitz, NY)

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...442,-73.504543&spn=0.040626,0.074844&t=h&z=14

And doing a little digging on the FCC website database, I found this:

http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=2606530

which, obviously, is what you all have already found out about who owns those freqs

From the sites I started the DFing at, I believe that these transmitters cover all up and down the Hudson Valley. From the first site I started DFing from in Pittsfield, I had bearings from almost due south to due north via west and from that site, I can hear VHF public service stations from down into Dutchess and Orange county up into Washington and Saratoga counties very easily, so I'm guessing that's where these transmitters were coming from. From the second site in Mount Washington, MA (in the extreme southwest corner of the state), I found additional transmitters to the south that I hadn't heard in Pittsfield.

Just thought I would add in that info. I'll be curious to hear more about what everyone else finds out!

Justin/W1IX

 

[DaveNF2G]

Still wondering how NYSEG is able to build a digital trunked network (legally) on a bunch of paging licenses.

 

[DaveNF2G]

BTW, I've heard or seen data transmitted about 11 sites.

A possible twelfth site on 151.970 shows as P25 but does not decode on any of my scanners.

The SysID (for the NYSEG sites) is 0269 and the details are available via the NF2G Scannist Pages. More input is welcome.

 

[EricCottrell]

BTW, I've heard or seen data transmitted about 11 sites.

A possible twelfth site on 151.970 shows as P25 but does not decode on any of my scanners.

The SysID (for the NYSEG sites) is 0269 and the details are available via the NF2G Scannist Pages. More input is welcome.

Hello,

Based on people's experience with new P25 trunked systems, there is a time period when the system is being setup that scanners will not recognize the control channel. Likely certain data is missing from the stream.

73 Eric

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

New York State Electric & Gas Corporation won a bunch of paging frequencies in FCC Auction 48. There were a bunch of 35 and 43 Low Band ones as well as High Band.
http://wireless.fcc.gov/auctions/default.htm?job=auction_summary&id=48

The Paging channels are 30 KHz wide. I found around here users put two nbfm channels in a single paging channel with 15 KHz spacing (offset 7.5 KHz from the channel edge).

Auction 48 Lower and Upper Paging Bands.

152 MHz Paired	152.075-152.105 / 158.535-158.565 Burlington VT-NY	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Paired	152.195-152.225 / 158.655-158.685 Burlington VT-NY	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Paired	152.495-152.525 / 157.755-157.785 Burlington VT-NY	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Paired	152.615-152.645 / 157.875-157.905 Burlington VT-NY	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Paired	152.045-152.075 / 158.505-158.535 Albany-Schenectady-Troy NY	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Paired	152.075-152.105 / 158.535-158.565 Albany-Schenectady-Troy NY	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Paired	152.195-152.225 / 158.655-158.685 Albany-Schenectady-Troy NY	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Paired	152.495-152.525 / 157.755-157.785 Albany-Schenectady-Troy NY	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Paired	152.615-152.645 / 157.875-157.905 Albany-Schenectady-Troy NY	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Paired	152.705-152.735 / 157.965-157.995 Albany-Schenectady-Troy NY	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation

152 MHz Unpaired	152.230-152.250	Syracuse NY-PA	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Unpaired	158.090-158.110	Syracuse NY-PA	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Unpaired	158.690-158.710	Syracuse NY-PA	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Unpaired	152.230-152.250	Rochester NY-PA	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Unpaired	158.090-158.110	Rochester NY-PA	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Unpaired	158.690-158.710	Rochester NY-PA	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Unpaired	152.230-152.250	Buffalo-Niagara Falls NY-PA	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Unpaired	158.090-158.110	Buffalo-Niagara Falls NY-PA	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation
152 MHz Unpaired	158.690-158.710	Buffalo-Niagara Falls NY-PA	New York State Electric & Gas Corporation

73 Eric

 

[rbm]

The SysID (for the NYSEG sites) is 0269 and the details are available via the NF2G Scannist Pages. More input is welcome.

I listened to NYSEG setting up the new trunked systems a few months ago. I didn't have time to record the activity at the time as I was heading out of state for a while.

After a power outage this past week I decided to get serious about deciphering the new system.

(Dave, the NYSEG frequencies I submitted to your site quite a while back (160.395 etc) have been all but dead lately.)

I created a system for each P25 control channel I could find and I've been logging the data for the last few days. I'll upload the six Uniden usd files for these sites.

I just gave each system a number (1-18) so it would be easier to sort the logs. Other than that the number in the system name has no meaning.

Here's what I have confirmed so far.

Obviously I'd welcome any input and updates. I'll do the same here.

Rich

Verified NYSEG Control Channels:
SQK = 41
Trunk 1 - 152.0525
Trunk 2 - 152.0825
Trunk 3 - 152.1425
Trunk12 - 152.7575
Trunk16 - 153.2150
Trunk17 - 153.2175

ID:121 Vestal Electric
ID:122 Vestal Gas
ID:123 Vestal Call Center

ID:141 Elmira Electric
ID:142 Elmira Gas
ID:143 Elmira Call Center

ID:171 Ithaca Electric
ID:172 Ithaca Gas
ID:173 Ithaca Call Center