Upset ATC?

[scankid2591]

I remember coming into KSNS in a Cessna and over the waves I hear:
(KSNS Controller): ... Roger, I'll contact when you are 3 miles out, NXXXX
NXXXX: Salinas Tower, NXXXX, roger, contact when 3 miles out.

A few minutes later:

NXXXX: Umm... Salinas Tower, this is NXXXX, you said you'd contact when I was 3 miles out. I'm actually about 2 miles out now.
(KSNS Controller): DAMN! I guess I forgot. My bad. ...

 

[JoeyC]

Its not the controllers responsibility to contact you or even verify your compliance with instructions. If you're entering controlled airspace its your responsibility as the pilot to stay out of it until given clearance to enter.

 

[K0ATC]

Its not the controllers responsibility to contact you or even verify your compliance with instructions. If you're entering controlled airspace its your responsibility as the pilot to stay out of it until given clearance to enter.

Actually you dont need clearance to enter controlled airspace. If a pilot calls up and the controller says ANYTHING other then to stay out of the airspace, the plane can enter. Meaning the controller can just say "Nxxxx stand by" the plane can now enter controlled airspace. You would be suprized how much is actually on the controller, even when the pilot screws up they always go after the controller first.

 

[scankid2591]

Hmm... then in that case I guess I heard wrong.

 

[JoeyC]

Actually you dont need clearance to enter controlled airspace. If a pilot calls up and the controller says ANYTHING other then to stay out of the airspace, the plane can enter. Meaning the controller can just say "Nxxxx stand by" the plane can now enter controlled airspace. You would be suprized how much is actually on the controller, even when the pilot screws up they always go after the controller first.

Hmm, I didn't know that was true for VFR. Thanks for the clarification. It really doesn't surprise me in the least that the controller would be held accountable for the pilots mistakes. :roll:

 

[K0ATC]

Yeah, for some reason pilots and controllers do not share the same info. I was a liasion between an aero club on the airport and the control tower I worked at, there was a lot of things that both sides needed to know about the other and this helped out a lot. For whatever reason when they are training these new pilots they dont have them in the FAAO 7110.65 at all. This is where all the rules and regs are for ATC and it could really help them understand what we are doing and why. I went on several check rides just to get an idea and I was much more understanding with the pilots afterwards as it was more difficult then i expected up there. Though this is no excuse for screwing up, just as it isnt for a controller, it does make you think a bit before you snap at a pilot, and i hope them visiting our facility will help them be as understanding. But one thing I can say, this job is no different then any other in the fact that if you are not in the mood or just haveing a bad day, others are going to hear about it LOL. Whatever side you are on just try to stay professional and things will go smooth, and if you really mess something up dont take it to heart when you get chewed out!

 

[BMT]

Quan Loi,Viet Nam

We were schedule for a first light T/O. We drove to the strip in FOG that was 3' off the ground.
Pre-flighted our O-1E "BIRDDOG". Called the tower for T/O clearance and was advised the field was closed.
Trusty WO pilot called for an instrument T/O.
Controller passed setting for an instrument T/O. We sat a few second's and called on the go. Passing the tower at about 50' up the controller advised us we couldn't T/O in a Birddog because we didn't have enough instruments.
Tower called an ask us to tell him what altitude we broke out on top. We broke out at 1500' and no fog or clouds were in a 50 mile radius of the strip.

BMT

 

[DPD1]

I live next door to Gillespie Field in El Cajon, Ca. There is one controller there who doesn't take enough valium before coming to work. The other day he told a student pilot, "Learn how to use your radio or you will NEVER fly at this airport again." Only days later he told another pilot, "Sir, I would never fly outbound on a localizer or ILS. It's dangerous and you'll get yourself killed".

I used to be an air traffic controller and NEVER had the occasion to berate and humiliate pilots on the radio. That's simply unprofessional.

I would say that most of the scolding ATC does is warranted... But there does seem to be some bad apples out there. I remember when I first flew as a kid, a few controllers almost seem to get some sort of sadistic pleasure by torturing students. On one occasion I was flying into a fairly large airport for the first time, and the guy doing approach spoke particularly fast, even though it didn't even seem to be busy. When I asked him to repeat 'unfamiliar student', he repeated the info even faster than the first time, to the point of it almost being absurd. The instructor had to take over, since I couldn't understand what the heck he wanted me to do, which kind of defeats the purpose. Later, my guy told me it wasn't my imagination... He did that to every student.

Dave
http://www.dpdproductions.com
- Custom Scanner, MURS, GMRS, Marine & Ham Antennas -

 

[Declared_Hostile]

You know, this doesn't exactly relate to ATC exactly but I hear pilots on UNICOM giving their information when descending to, or operating near one of several uncontrolled airports in my area and they don't mention which one. Sometimes they do, but far too many times they'll ask about traffic and advise they're turning or descending but won't mention which airport. Well they are a few thousand feet in the air and that signal is going quite a ways and that could conceivably be a 3 or 4 airports which are within 20 miles or less of each other. It's "Cessna 1234November turning downwind any traffic please advise". Well, great..... which airport might that be?

Can someone with actual formal pilot instruction or other training tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree here?

 

[DaveNF2G]

The frequency they are using and any runway number they mention is usually sufficient to distinguish the airport being used.

 

[Declared_Hostile]

It's UNICOM so it is the same freq for all of the airports involved and they aren't necessarily using runway numbers either. I heard one just the other day advise he was "transiting the area just south of the airport any traffic in the area please advise" well that's just dandy....which airport?

 

[DaveNF2G]

There are several Unicom/CTAF frequencies. They are not common to all airports in the same small geographical area. Check the various online airport frequency databases and you can find out which local airports are using which specific Unicom frequencies.

 

[karldotcom]

I heard a controller at Burbank become unglued one day....there were three planes with nearly identical tail numbers, and they all entered the same Ident....it went around for 20 minutes before it was cleared up.....the tail numbers were like 232, 332, and 223. The controller would tell one to turn, and two would turn, toward each other.

Only one spoke fluent English and one kept wanting to do touch and goes when 737s were lined up all the Mojave.

 

[AngelFire91]

You know, this doesn't exactly relate to ATC exactly but I hear pilots on UNICOM giving their information when descending to, or operating near one of several uncontrolled airports in my area and they don't mention which one. Sometimes they do, but far too many times they'll ask about traffic and advise they're turning or descending but won't mention which airport. Well they are a few thousand feet in the air and that signal is going quite a ways and that could conceivably be a 3 or 4 airports which are within 20 miles or less of each other. It's "Cessna 1234November turning downwind any traffic please advise". Well, great..... which airport might that be?

Can someone with actual formal pilot instruction or other training tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree here?

Even though there is no formal Regulation saying that the airport needs to be stated on the unicom or CTAF it is written in the AIM (Airman information manual) which many take as regulations. It is very good practice to do it, because you are right, it would be good to know which airport your at so other pilots in the area can be on the lookout. However I have been in some places where it's crazy because there will be 2 or 3 planes in the patteren not even talking.

Actually you dont need clearance to enter controlled airspace. If a pilot calls up and the controller says ANYTHING other then to stay out of the airspace, the plane can enter. Meaning the controller can just say "Nxxxx stand by" the plane can now enter controlled airspace. You would be suprized how much is actually on the controller, even when the pilot screws up they always go after the controller first.

I was always under the impression for Class C and D, if the controller stated, "Aircraft calling, standby." you could not enter the airspace untill you were identified which means, "N2345, standby." you could then enter. Now Class B on the other hand required "N2345, you are cleared into the ___ Class B." However It's been awhile since I've flown VFR and 98% of my flying for work is IFR so correct me if I'm wrong please.

Kevin

 

[K0ATC]

Stop making me think! LOL

I was always under the impression for Class C and D, if the controller stated, "Aircraft calling, standby." you could not enter the airspace untill you were identified which means, "N2345, standby." you could then enter. Now Class B on the other hand required "N2345, you are cleared into the ___ Class B." However It's been awhile since I've flown VFR and 98% of my flying for work is IFR so correct me if I'm wrong please.

Kevin

You are correct that the controller has to use your callsign, otherwise you have no way of knowing if you were the one he acknowledged.

3-1-13. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS

Pilots are required to establish two-way radio communications before entering the Class D airspace. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(a/c call sign) standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter the Class D airspace. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class D services, inform the pilot to remain outside the Class D airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

PHRASEOLOGY-
(A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE DELTA AIRSPACE AND STANDBY.

Aircraft need to have two way communication and a control instruction to enter what is referred to as positive control airspace, this would apply to everything but G and D. Typically we don't really consider an aircraft entering A,B,C as VFR per say because they are required to have a transponder and we have to establish radar contact with them, as well as give them traffic advisories. Class C is a kind of gray line as it could be a terminal radar facility or an airport but either way it is going to be busy and you best get permission prior to entering. Here is a link to the FAAO 7110.65, it is the air traffic bible for the most part, though other regulations can trump what is in the 65.

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/