VHF AM Airband Antenna

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rocky28965

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I've actually got all the QN AIP charts, use them in flight sim.

My location is Wanaka, so there is a large hill in the way.
I can receive aircraft calling QN Tower but not the response.
 

paulears

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If the ground station just breaks the squelch, then a simple 2or 3 element vertical beam can work wonders, but as Scotty always used to say, "Ye can break the laws of physics, Captain"
 

majoco

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a large hill in the way

The understatement of the year - here's a pic of the Queenstown airport approach from the Crown Range Road - the "large hill" is considerably higher!
 
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rocky28965

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I picked up a frequency yesterday that surprised me, so I might put the ground plane project on hold.
I was listening to a couple of glider pilots chatting.
Wasn't till one gave his position as overhead Ranfurly, I realised how far away they were.
Was coming through as clear as.
Must be about 100k as the crow/glider flies.
 
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majoco

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Did he says what altitude he was? Gliders get up pretty high these days with supplemental oxygen masks. Most glider air-to-air are on 133.55 or
134.85 MHz

In the 80's I was in the back of a CAA Friendship I had access to a few antennas on the bottom of the aircraft and when things were quiet I hooked a little Icom IC2 handheld to a spare com antenna. Certainly not tuned to the 2m band and not very efficient anyway. Cruising about 18000ft over Nelson I raised a repeater in Auckland and had quite a nice chat with someone until we started our descent into Paraparaumu. Altitude is everything!
 

rocky28965

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Thought I'd give this thread another tug.
Was wondering how a Nagoya NL-780A Air Band Antenna on a mag mount, placed on my house roof would compare with my vertical dipole.
 

Ubbe

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Your vertical dipole are supposed to have 2.14dBi gain if it is working as expected and the Nagoya 3.5dBi if put on a perfect groundplane and that 1.36dB difference are too small to be noted.

/Ubbe
 

paulears

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and with a poor ground plane, you have no idea which direction the thing gives that gain - it could be at 90 degrees to the vertical, and aircraft are mainly not in that direction. Base station - free space antennas rarely get beaten by ground plane types on makeshift small ones - and of course look pretty stupid too, with the usual bodges to keep them up there! You also need to not see isotropic gain figures as real gain - a dipole has 0dB gain, yet on the isotropic scale, it has! Treat any dBi figures as purely hypothetical, and look at dBd for true meaning. Sales hype takes 0dBd gain as looking bad, so converts it to dBi because there are more numbers, impressing people.
 

kayn1n32008

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You also need to not see isotropic gain figures as real gain - a dipole has 0dB gain, yet on the isotropic scale, it has! Treat any dBi figures as purely hypothetical, and look at dBd for true meaning. Sales hype takes 0dBd gain as looking bad, so converts it to dBi because there are more numbers, impressing people.


Bingo.

dBi is an almost useless number. dBd is much closer to real life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

nd5y

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dBi isn't useless, you just have to ad 2.15 to it to get dBd.
Gain also changes with the height of the antenna above ground compared to theoretical gain in free space.
Even with that you will see many manufacturers still lie about gain figures.
 

prcguy

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Commercial land mobile antennas are typically advertised in dBd gain but most other types are stated in dBi like commercial satellite, military, instrumentation, etc. I work with critical $5M class satellite uplink antennas and you will not find any rated in dBd, its only dBi or dBic if its circular polarized.

Look at any link budget for calculating radio coverage or uplink levels to a satellite or satellite to ground, etc. They all use dBi for antenna gain in the calculation.

The gain standard used is not important because you can interpolate between them and the two things that are important are that its got the actual gain stated and you know what direction its in. You can have two antennas with identical gain ratings that are true but if one is on a lobe pointing 10deg upward it could be several dB lower in gain than the other pointing at the horizon if that's where you need the gain.

If Paul's comment about having a pattern on an aircraft base antenna being 90 degrees to the vertical means the lobe is right at the horizon, that is where you want it for an aircraft base antenna.

When aircraft are at any altitude they are usually line of sight to a base antenna and you can probably hear them on just the center pin of a PL-259 sticking up with no antenna. If you want to hear aircraft 200, 300 400mi out you need the antenna to have gain at the horizon when its down below buildings or the horizon. Commercial aircraft base antennas have low angle lobes at the horizon, not up in the air.
prcguy




and with a poor ground plane, you have no idea which direction the thing gives that gain - it could be at 90 degrees to the vertical, and aircraft are mainly not in that direction. Base station - free space antennas rarely get beaten by ground plane types on makeshift small ones - and of course look pretty stupid too, with the usual bodges to keep them up there! You also need to not see isotropic gain figures as real gain - a dipole has 0dB gain, yet on the isotropic scale, it has! Treat any dBi figures as purely hypothetical, and look at dBd for true meaning. Sales hype takes 0dBd gain as looking bad, so converts it to dBi because there are more numbers, impressing people.
 

rocky28965

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Gosh quite a response, but you guys are talking way over my head.
But as I understand it there wont be a big difference if they are both set up correctly.
So I'll stick to my dipole for now.
I don't have any fancy gear to test the signal.
Except if I use a SDR through a computer, there is a signal strength indication in the main window.
With that I was hoping to be able to lock on to the ATIS from one of the airports or some other continuous transmission so I can tweak the antenna to suit.
 

Ubbe

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With that I was hoping to be able to lock on to the ATIS from one of the airports or some other continuous transmission so I can tweak the antenna to suit.

If you can receive an ATIS station then that's a perfect way of testing and tuning antennas for air-VHF.
Where I live the weather has a huge influence. Some days the ATIS transmission goes in crystal clear and other days it cannot be heard even with the squelch open.

/Ubbe
 

iMONITOR

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I use the Sirio GP-108, and the PAR VHF-FM Broadcast 88 - 108 Filters
VHF-FM Broadcast Filters | PAR Electronics | Filters for the commercial 2 way market, MATV, FM broadcast, laboratory, marine industry, amateur radio, scanner and short wave listening enthusiasts

fm_filter.jpg

Sirio GP 108-136 LB/N VHF Aircraft Band 108-136mhz Base Antenna
Sirio GP 108-136 LB/N VHF Aircraft Band 108-136mhz Base Antenna [gp108136n] - $112.00 : Sirio Antenna, High Performance Antenna Made in Italy

gp_vhf2.jpeg
 

iMONITOR

Silent Key
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The Sirio antenna is a standard 1/4 wave GP, nothing high performance with that.

/Ubbe

I didn't make any claims to it being a 'high performance' antenna. However as prcguy mentioned in post #13:

"Commercial ground plane antennas marketed for VHF air band use a very fat vertical radiator upwards of 1.5" dia or more. These will have a great match across 118-136Mhz."

The vertical radiator on the Sirio is 2-3/8" in diameter. There may be a little more to it than meets the eye. The Vertical radiator is also hollow, and has two screws at the top that allow it to be removed from the rest of the antenna, almost like an upside down can. Internally there is also two brass vertical elements with what appears as some kind of tuning mechanism near the base that bridges across the two, but not as a dead short. I won't pretend to understand the design. All I know is it works great! When I get the time, I'll dismantle it and try to post some pictures of its internal design.

Top view showing the two screws for disassembly:
 

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IdaScan

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Please stop recommending Discone antennas for air band and satellite reception. The vertical beamwidth of these broadband, no gain antennas put the radiation pattern close and below the horizon - neither of which aircraft or satellites exist.
 
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