VP8000 on PA-StarNET

[KC3AWP]

Good morning all! Looking to purchase VP8000's to use on multiple systems throughout our region, one of which is the Pennsylvania StarNET, a trunked P25 Phase 2 system. I'm being told by the dealer that once the encryption key and code plug for the state gets loaded in, I will no longer be able to program in non-state channels myself. Essentially, all programming at that point would be locked down, and I, myself, would not be able to modify other conventional systems. Is this correct?

I have an APX8000 with PA StarNET in it, and minus the StarNET channels, I can modify the other personalities. I imagine this would be the same as the Kenwood. Any clarification on this would be appreciated!

 

[tweiss3]

It appears that this might be the interpretation the Radio Communication Policy from 2021 https://www.pa.gov/content/dam/copapwp-pagov/en/osig/documents/about-osig/policies/documents/radio policy.pdf
It's likely they intend to password lock the radio, though there are different levels of security policies that can (not will) be used to keep the information from the trunked system from being changed/shared. The note about Auxiliary Frequencies on page 4 seems to indicate this is the desired method by StarNET.

You may want to have another conversation with the dealer telling you this, and bring a copy of your written permission for the multiple systems you need, and discuss your need for all these systems as well as ham usage (just an assumption). You aren't going to get a key yourself, but when I move a system key (shows up as not available), you can still upload a revised codeplug, you just can't change anything with the systems.

 

[KC3AWP]

The different security levels make sense as all modifications to trunk systems require the key before modifying on the Moto.

OSIG-issued radios shall only make use of OSIG-approved frequencies. The use of any additional frequencies must first be approved by the agency.

Leads me to believe other frequencies are allowed, but would they be open to modification to the radio owner instead of the state? I know this to be true, but I've never played with a VP8000 to see if it has the different security levels to allow modification like the Moto.

 

[otobmark]

The master key can set security policies for radios it programs as well as daughter keys generated by it. Those daughter keys can further set policy (increase restrictions) if enabled to do so. The dealers's key may be a daughter key which is already restricted in what it can do so as to not be able to leave the radios it programs (yours) “open” for alteration of conventional channels. If it’s not then the dealer can if he will leave your radio open for all non TRS programming by you. Anything can be done, question is what will be permitted. Some dealers are control freaks.
I own my own radios and I’m very familiar with the “system key” dance...

 

[KC3AWP]

I ended up emailing the state to see their answer. Unfortunately the dealer which is selling the product isn’t the one who can program it on the state side afaik. From what Otobmark is saying, I’m hoping since the master key in the moto allows for editing, it’ll be the same with the Kenwood. I initially though it would be a limitation of the hardware but from the sounds of it, its all controlled by the key holder. We never had any TRS in this area so this is all new to me. Multicast is about as advanced as it gets lol.

Now to wait for the state to reply (if that even ever happens)

 

[talviar]

I know in my case... all my agencies radios programmed with Starnet are not locked so we can't program them. We can add/delete/change anything in the radio except the Startnet system.

 

[wsp44]

I have an APX8000 with PA StarNET in it, and minus the StarNET channels, I can modify the other personalities. I imagine this would be the same as the Kenwood. Any clarification on this would be appreciated!

I can't speak to how the system admins have the radios programmed on StarNET, but Telviar kind of hints at how the radio will be set up and that is really no different than how your APX8000 is.

Without a key (child or soft) all the system parameters pertaining to that certain P25 system are locked (you will have a red X beside the system, and all the system parameters will be greyed out). You can't add/delete/change anything to the system I.e. TG's, CC's, ETC.

An example of what you can do within the global settings of the radio is you could go into the Zones/Channels tab, copy a conventional channel (8TAC91 for instance) and paste that channel into "StarNET zone 1". You can add new systems (trunked or conventional) without issue.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

It depends on how the system key restrictions are set and whether or not there is a security policy on the radio. In Armada, you can require a system key to edit, require an ESK to edit (i.e. no softkey), allow some editing without the system key or only allow zone/channel assignment to be changed without a system key. Additionally, there are security policies which can be put in place similar to a Motorola Codeplug Password. The question, are you going to be locked out from reading/writing the radio with a security policy or not.

As a system manager, I tend to go the password route mainly to regulate codeplugs. We've had some issues were dealers have corrupted codeplugs or don't have any form of codeplug consistency over the years so I tend to prefer all changes be requested. The dealers can push the codeplugs, I just don't give them the power to change anything.

 

[otobmark]

As a system manager, I tend to go the password route mainly to regulate codeplugs

If the TRS system is locked then why should TRS manager care about or control the non TRS part of the radio unless they own the radio? What has been described by OP is an equivalent to a multi agency loadout. Why does one agency have need to control anything beyond their system. This would be equivalent to telling OP he cannot carry a separate radio with frequencies of his choosing—or as in this case a separate partition in the same radio. If system in question decides OP hasn’t the right to be there in future then decertify his radio ID and mac address on the noc.

 

[otobmark]

As a system manager, I tend to go the password route mainly to regulate codeplugs

If the TRS system is locked then why should TRS manager care about or control the non TRS part of the radio unless they own the radio? What has been described by OP is an equivalent to a multi agency loadout. Why does one agency have need to control anything beyond their system. This would be equivalent to telling OP he cannot carry a separate radio with frequencies of his choosing—or as in this case a separate partition in the same radio. If system in question decides OP hasn’t the right to be there in future then decertify his radio ID and mac address on the noc.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

If the TRS system is locked then why should TRS manager care about or control the non TRS part of the radio unless they own the radio? What has been described by OP is an equivalent to a multi agency loadout. Why does one agency have need to control anything beyond their system. This would be equivalent to telling OP he cannot carry a separate radio with frequencies of his choosing—or as in this case a separate partition in the same radio. If system in question decides OP hasn’t the right to be there in future then decertify his radio ID and mac address on the noc.

In this case, the reason I care has to do with a bunch of stuff getting removed that is required per agreements to be in the Zone/Channel assignment and/or interop stuff just being plain out wrong and the error not being caught until a year or more after the vendor programmed the radio last. I also can only OTAP radios if my office can control the codeplugs.

What it comes down to, more consistent and vetted codeplugs across multiple radio models. We've even run into cases where the same radio for the same department may have slightly different flashcodes and how the differing codeplugs are written is entirely different. If everyone wasn't on the same regional system, not taking over full control of the codeplugs would make more sense but at the end of the day, it's a service the communications department provides at zero additional cost to the users of the system and they just have to ask for something to be added to get it added.

 

[otobmark]

There will always be a battle between the thick end of the wedge people and the thin end people. Since the thin end people are usually in harms way I instinctively side with them and in giving them every latitude possible to solve problems (usually unanticipated) on the ground. Call the mothership to access radios is a non-starter. All this is to say, if OP takes responsibility for his own equipment and his own actions, then he can be accommodated without any threat to the TRS System. I am not addressing risk to "mission" or his job. If he redoes his Zones and eliminates needed TG's or puts them where he cannot find them quickly so as to hinder him in the performance of his job and thereby put at risk himself and co workers then that would be an issue for the agency but not a threat to the TRS system itself. I am not informed on the limitations of OTAP or how to accommodates one off codeplugs. Worst case would be OP could not use OTAP and have to make a trip to the radio shop for updates. Actually in Armada I can send a plug to a key holder and he can add in system and authorize it, and send it back to me to shoot my radio without me ever having possession of the key...pretty cool.

 

[cavmedic]

This sounds correct for radios with the State System onboard. When some channels were made simulcast in another PA County, their EMA radios needed an update to reflect the changes. EMA had to go through a the State to have a non Star Net zone changed as the radio was locked down for everything due to the Counties PEMA talk group. Look on the bright side, at least the admin is allowing other radios besides Motorolas on the system now.

 

[KC3AWP]

Thanks all for your replies! I was more looking at this thinking it was a limit of what the radio could do, but it seems as a limit of what the key holder will allow. As of now, the TRS system is completely locked out of the Moto's, and im fine and agree with that. I understand [the state system] is not my sandbox and im a user. I just want to be in control of my sandbox when things change, which we are in the process of doing so.

...Look on the bright side, at least the admin is allowing other radios besides Motorolas on the system now.

This is why im asking. It seems we're entering in uncharted water with other brands making their debut. AFAIK, ive only seen PennDOT with non-moto gear.

 

[talviar]

Thanks all for your replies! I was more looking at this thinking it was a limit of what the radio could do, but it seems as a limit of what the key holder will allow. As of now, the TRS system is completely locked out of the Moto's, and im fine and agree with that. I understand [the state system] is not my sandbox and im a user. I just want to be in control of my sandbox when things change, which we are in the process of doing so.


This is why im asking. It seems we're entering in uncharted water with other brands making their debut. AFAIK, ive only seen PennDOT with non-moto gear.

The System Administrator of the StarNet radio system is carrying a VP8000 portable. It is her preferred choice of radios from my understanding.


And there are lots of reasons other vendors are not permitted on to the state system. PA requires stringent requirements for the radios, so far Moto and Kenwood are the only 2 to complete and pass testing on StarNet.