What comes after encryption?

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oregontreehugger

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I can see the various police unions and representative groups going against it if bad things or close calls start to happen to officers because of radio issues. Heck, it's that way already just with P25 digital. Same goes for fire departments -- digital (and trunking to an extent) are not well liked on the fireground. Whether those issues can be worked out from a technical standpoint in the long term, I have no idea.

As far as the general public or the media -- I don't think there's much recourse. The government doesn't have an obligation to protect you as an individual or provide you with access to their communications. If enough issues do arise and things get really bad, I can see people changing things in the voting booth or by petitioning their local officials. Look at what has happened with red light cameras. At first it was a push for "safety" but as time went on they were abused for fundraising; now folks have been pressing for them to be removed in many communities.

My $.02 :)
 

electronicnut

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Thanks for the video maplebear. A lot of hostility in that conference.
Does anybody know if there is a way to find out if encryption is soon coming in a particular area?
 

electronicnut

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Another good one maplebear. This is now 3 areas I know of that is using this system, there must be a lot more out there. My area may be next, I can not imagine not having my scanner. At first I thought "well there is still EMS" but I guess not. Thank you, I appreciate it.
 
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maplebear

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electronicnut

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I did an internet search for "encrypted areas" and came up with nothing. Evidently I did not dig around enough in RR yet. You are so helpful. I had no idea there was already that many encrypted areas. I saw what I did not want to see, oh well! It is too close to my area now. Again maplebear, thank you very much.
 

trace1

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Trace1,
Would rather be a police officer with a radio system like open sky or VHF/UHF conventional radio system?
Radio encryption hampers policing, sources say | WJLA.com

I'm guessing you're asking me if I'd rather be a police officer with a radio system like open sky or VHF/UHF conventional radio system, right? You're original comment was, "You are a police officer and your coded radio fails to work. You get killed or injured." and my first question was, "And if you’re a Police Officer and your conventional VHF/UHF (non-digital, non-coded) radio fails to work and you get killed, who are you going to blame or what suggestion(s) would you make to improve or ensure that this would never happen?", and you failed to answer my question. But I'll honor your request for an answer, I actually worked in Law Enforcement many years ago and we used the conventional VHF frequencies at first then moved to the 800MHz (non-digital, non-coded) frequencies. Both systems worked good and never had a problem with either one. If I was still in Law Enforcement I really don't think it would matter much what I'd rather use, as I'd have little to no say so at whatever system was being used by any particular agency.

I would like to add though, as a scanner listener, there are some encrypted transmissions on some of the system I currently monitor. Can't say that I'm that much upset because I can't hear what's happening on that particular call though. I'd like to also add that with my volunteer work as an amateur radio operator and our close work with the local county EMA we have use of 800MHz digital (non-coded) radios and they work great! Even during the April 27th tornadoes that struck this area, both the coded (LE talkgroups, etc.) and non-coded (FD, EMS and others etc.) on this same 800Mhz digital system worked fine.

I have heard many times when the cops or dispatchers will talk to the people in scanner land because they need help.

Okay, that is fine but this was not your original point of disagreement with encrypted systems, remember?

There times when things have happened and No DC alert have gone out.

Again, this was not part of your original disagreement with the use of encryption on Public Safety frequencies etc.

Would you rather live in ANYTOWN with a coded radio system or non coded system where you can know what is going on ?

Well I happen to monitor various systems some of which, as I stated above, use encryption but it really doesn't bother me at all I have a pretty good handle on what is happening around me...

Would rather live a in a place where your only source of information is given to you by the government?

Let see you first said, in regard to living in Anytown with a coded radio system, "There is major storm headed your way but Anytown tv & radio stations or you with a scanner can not hear about it because of the coded radio system." and now you appear to be asking me if I'd rather live somewhere that my only source of information is given out only by the government. I didn't realize that in your town the TV/Radio outlets were run by the government, unless of course you're only able to receive PBS/Public Radio...

And just in case you're wondering, those Public Safety frequencies you're desiring to monitor but can't, they represent the "government"! So, is this the only source of information you're ready to trust and rely on?

Not trying to "pick nits" here with you, but I'm not fully understanding your logic in the opposition to the use of encryption...

Yes you've provided a few links, but really?
 

Sinister

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If this thread is about encryption then everyone needs to stay on topic. If the posts continue in the direction they are the thread will be closed.
 

campeck

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My $.02 would be that our government and government agencies put in place by the people (that's you and me) should not hide behind a shroud of secrecy. We should be able to listen to them when and where we want. (barring maybe some military and CIA/FBI or swat agencies)
Some of the latest "filming Police" scandals come to mind. Sorry officer...but you are a public officer. meaning everything you do should be public knowledge. Don't like it? Find a new job.
 

maplebear

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Trace1,
I am against full encryption on all public safety radio systems.
The government tells you their version on what happened if they feel like.
It just reminds of the days of communisn where the government told you their version on what happened. They took more and more rights away. The secret police could arrest you any time.
Then you would just disappear to never to be heard of again.
This is a slippery slope we are on. What rights does the government take away next?
Maybe take away all firearms it's for public safety .
 
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VE3RADIO

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Good luck on "breaking" encryption codes. Agencies usually change them quite often, some even daily, via a system known as OTAR (Over The Air Rekeying).


OTAR could quite possibly be the downfall of encryption.. I would think it would be easier to trick the system in to giving you a key then cracking the key.

On another note, someone should send in a key request via the freedom of information act. (obviously it would get denied)
 
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mrkevin02

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I live in a very small town that has the Sheriff's Depart. encrypted. this is a copy of a letter I sent to the sheriff asking him to reconsider the encryption.

I have a new digital scanner and after 10 days of trying to figure out how to program it I finally have it up and running. I have noticed that you seem to have the Sheriff’s Department running on the Lane County Ops Channel which is encrypted (ie scrambled) I also noticed that there are 2 other channels, Lane County Dispatch & Lane County Tac.

I do understand the importance of having an encrypted channel, but I feel there is no need to have the daily operations (ie car stops, paper being served, weather watching, car crashes etc.) encrypted from people listening in on scanners. I understand and totally agree that Officer Safety is the first priority. I also understand that there are times for the use of an encrypted channel. (search warrants and surveillances) I know you have concerns with lookie lous that show up at scenes and also privacy issues.

Living in Dighton there is little to no privacy. You can go to the bowling alley for breakfast and sit next to the table of knowledge (a group of 6 to 8 farmers and retired gentlemen) and hear everything that happen the night before. Or stop in at the Kwikshop around 10 am or around 3 pm and listen to the nice elderly ladies talk about what happened. Most times in the event of an injury or a sickness where the ambulance is called, my wife gets a call from one of the church ladies as she is part of the prayer chain probable before the ambulance gets to the hospital.

As for lookie lous sometimes they come in handy at a scene. I’ll share 3 examples of scenes I was on where lookie lous helped.
1. Opening Day of Pheasant season a roll over accident on Pendennis Road 5 miles north of K-4, crash happened at around midnight but not found till 7:30 am 1 person trapped in the car, the car on it‘s top. Only one fireman showed up with the rescue unit. We used 3 or 4 lookie lous to help block the car up and help get the person out.
2. On a Thursday night at about midnight a roll over accident on K-23 Just before you go down the big hill. The cab of the pickup was on top of the driver. Even though there was two ambulance crews and several fire rescue personnel trying to dig the person out. The ground was too soft for jacks to work. With the help of several lookie lous the side of the pickup was lifted up so the person underneath could be removed.


3. A few years ago there was a School bus vs Semi-tractor trailer crash at Shields around 3:30 pm. The Sheriff, both Fire Chiefs, & the Director of EMS as well as the hospital Administrator and Head Nurse were all out of town at a class on disaster management. I will always think that if it wasn’t for people with scanners responding to help we would have lost more than just one student & the passenger in the semi.

Living in a small community, by encrypting your channels you are hurting a resource that could be really valuable at any given time. I know you are going to say that the county has mutual aid agreements with surrounding counties, but how fast can that aid be put to work? 30 minutes is a long time when you are dealing with the “Golden Hour” of a trauma injury.

I also know you are concerned with HIPPA. Here is a website with an article discussing HIPPA & Dispatching EMS and traffic back & fourth to the hospital I found interesting.
HIPAA Didn’t Kill the Radio Star | Public Safety Communications

The other thing I would like you to consider is weather. Living in Western Kansas as you know the weather here can change without notice. Local TV stations out of Wichita do their best to keep us safe. But with Cable & Satellite TV people are not always on a local station. Most of us who have a weather radio have it beside our beds so it will wake us in the middle of the night. So being able to listen to the Sheriff and Deputies weather spot is just another way to keep the community safe.

In closing I hope I have not upset or offended you in anyway. I hope you will consider the points that I have made. I know your main concern is Officer Safety, followed by the safety of the community. I think there can be a happy medium found that will keep Officers and Community safe but allow citizens with scanners to listen to what is going on too.
 

mrkevin02

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Encryption and the FCC

Growing up in Wichita Kansas about once an hour to once every 90 minutes you would here the police dispatcher call a car and ask for a KC Check. The car would responed KC-5629 then the dispatcher would reply KAA-663.

When I moved to small town Kansas the Sheriff's dispatcher would give the call sign after every transmission.

My question is if law enforcement is suppose to ID with call sign every hour or so how can they prove they are doing it on an encrypted Freq? I know big cities record everything and save it, but in small town America most don't even record 911 calls little on radio traffic. Is this a way for scanner hounds to fight back some way? Let the FCC do the work for us?
 
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