What's going on with 2m?

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zz0468

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All of those problems you speak about can be waved away with one hand, if you just chose to. An elmer is optional. There are plenty of books available. You don't need to attend local club meetings. You can read about everything you need to know, and you can pick up operating practices just by listening on the radio.

Or... you might just want to take up stamp collecting. I hear tell that it's a lot cheaper, and a lot less stressful. Stop looking for problems, start looking for solutions, or find another hobby. It's as simple as that. And based on some of your comments, it sounds as if you may be in problem solving mode. Keep at it, ignore the old guard hams that stand in your way, and press on.
 
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zz0468

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...What bugs me are spectrum inefficient local systems. These are RF linked repeaters that operate on dozens of frequency pairs and backbone frequencies carrying the same one conversation over a very wide area...

A common misconception about linked wide area repeaters is that they are spectrum inefficient. But consider a couple of things...

Many really wide area systems are using the same frequencies over and over. There may be overlapping coverage, but that allows a system to have pretty solid coverage in it's service area. There are some good reasons to want to do that, especially if the system is made available for emergency communications. It's an excellent resource when the need arises. Simulcasting in the same frequency can't or shouldn't always be done, and eliminates the the possibility of breaking the larger system into smaller stand-alone components if a specific event requires it.

The other thing to consider is large systems tend to gather a large membership of people who actually use it, as opposed to myriads of repeaters occupying frequencies that rarely ever get used. If you were to measure number of QSO's per KHz of bandwidth occupied, large linked systems become the hands down winner when it comes to spectrum efficiency.

Food for thought...
 

MTS2000des

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All of those problems you speak about can be waved away with one hand, if you just chose to. An elmer is optional. There are plenty of books available. You don't need to attend local club meetings. You can read about everything you need to know, and you can pick up operating practices just by listening on the radio.

Or... you might just want to take up stamp collecting. I hear tell that it's a lot cheaper, and a lot less stressful. Stop looking for problems, start looking for solutions, or find another hobby. It's as simple as that. And based on some of your comments, it sounds as if you may be in problem solving mode. Keep at it, ignore the old guard hams that stand in your way, and press on.

well stated. ham radio is what you make of it, if you come in with a poor attitude and outlook, that's exactly what you will get out of it. this is true with any social activity.

it is true, the activity levels on local repeaters wax and wane, like anything else, but those who stick around and enjoy it (like myself) are in it for the long run, and we usually are willing those who are new on the scene, who also have a desire to assimilate and become a part of the ham community.

Life is what you make of it. not just ham radio either.
 

W2IBC

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there is a few problems with 2m these days in most areas.

1. is all the unused paper repeaters.
2. alot of repeaters have owners who don't want anyone but him and his friends on it, or they have draconian rules for using the machine (you know the omg cant talk about politics oh dont talk religion, oh don't be telling any jokes, also don't be entertaining to listen to and tell it how it really is. we just want you to key up and you MUST act like your a police dispatcher with the K9AAA this is K9BBB crap dont you dare just key up and say hi bob whats up? cause if you do we will just turn the machine off.

so repeaters sit idle for the most part cause they are not any fun cause the owners and rules sucked any possibility of fun out of them. You may catch someone on simplex maybe.. but alot have moved on down to HF.

The county I am in. three 2 meter repeaters all of them dead 99.9999999% of the time. and were stuck on simplex. for now at least. and I have heard so many guys try to get in with us but all they are using is an HT several miles away and well that just dont work on simplex. so our "group" in how WE operate and the things we talk about must be what people really want to hear but again cant do that on any of the machines around here or you will be poo-pooed.
 

zz0468

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...The county I am in. three 2 meter repeaters all of them dead 99.9999999% of the time. and were stuck on simplex.

And yet another solvable problem. Your area has only 3 repeaters, and they're always dead? Get your group together and put up a repeater. Sounds like your area is RIPE for a decent one.
 

MTS2000des

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And yet another solvable problem. Your area has only 3 repeaters, and they're always dead? Get your group together and put up a repeater. Sounds like your area is RIPE for a decent one.

the time is right for building kick butt ham repeaters. with good quality, late commercial repeaters being practically given away (I know of one club that got FIVE completely working with duplexers and all!) MSF5000 100 watt UHF stations. It just took retuning and reprogramming to make awesome 440 machines.

high quality wideband LMR gear like Motorola Spectra, Maxtrac, Maratracs, M100's, etc are all great building blocks for basic repeaters. Add your controller of choice, duplexer and you've got a system. This is the FUN of ham radio.

soon lots of P25 phase I stations will be available. already Quantars are showing up en large numbers at surplus prices.

it's a GREAT time to be a ham if you like playing with LMR gear!
 

zz0468

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the time is right for building kick butt ham repeaters. with good quality, late commercial repeaters being practically given away

That's right. If you can't have one given to you, they're available on eBay for a few hundred dollars. Commercial mobile radios are available for cheap, as well.

it's a GREAT time to be a ham if you like playing with LMR gear!

Absolutely correct. It's even better than back in the 60's when all that wideband gear got dumped. Now everything is synthesized - no crystals. Although I wouldn't pass up a free MSR2000 just because they need crystals. Those are excellent radios as well.

So, for all the lamenting that all the repeaters are owned by a bunch of fuddy duddys, put up your own. Stop talking about it. Stop grumbling that no one is doing anything. Do it yourself!
 

Token

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I have been around communications - two way communications since about 1970 and amateur radio since about 1978.

You have been around amateur radio since 1978? Odd, from your comments and enthusiasm I would have guessed you had only been licensed for the last couple years or so. Not saying that in a negative way at all, just got the impression you were a more recent licensee.

WESTERN Pennsylvania - where I live, only has a couple of hamfests per a year - Butler Fairgrounds, Butler - fire company, Somerset, North Pittsburgh, McKeesport etc - maybe even Sharon PA - I do not know anymore.

Distances to hamfest are a problem for many people, but that is not a show stopper by any means. The closest hamfest to me happens about 90 miles away, most of the times I face a 120+ mile one-way trip to a hamfest. But, make a day of it and enjoy, this is, after all, supposed to be something to be enjoyed.

The other thing I am going to say is - NO - you cannot work on your own equipment anymore when it comes to modern equipment.
All the crap in my radio is surface mount technology and if you try to work on it by yourself - you will probably ruin more then what you will fix.

Even in a radio that is surface mount technology (SMT) there are many pieces / parts that can be fixed by a person of average technical ability. Most hardware is a mixture of SMT and other techs. And SMT does not mean you cannot work on it yourself, you just have to take your time. The theory behind it and the troubleshooting techniques are the same…you just might need to use a magnifying glass and a smaller iron to work with it.

Everyone does not need new gear. Used gear can be quite serviceable. And older gear is often easier to work on.

However, this has gone pretty far afield from the OPs question.

Here locally 2M is about as used today as it has been for the past 20+ years. We have as many repeaters as ever, although fewer of them have auto patch. Really no need for that today with the proliferation cell phones.

We do a lot of simplex here, maybe even more than repeater ops.

Also, weak signal work, SSB and CW, is pretty popular here. Because in the desert things are so spread out SSB is a bit more useful than FM, even mobile.

T!
 

Howdy_All

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Well Token - my listening of Amateur Radio started around 1970 and my using Amateur Radio started around 1978. only when I started using amateur radio, it was not two meters.
More like 10 / 20 and 40 meters and some CW.
A friend of mine had a General License at that time and we spent a whole summer on the radio.
As I remember it fondly -the 10 meters was so open, you could work Louisiana with as little as 1 watt on phone with a sloper antenna out the 3rd story bedroom window.

Then came back to school that fall and hoped to get into the amateur radio club at my local school and was turned down for unknown reasons and was left with a bitter taste in my mouth....
My family was poor and I was obviously poor and even $5.00 for the Novice exam would have been a hardship - would have had to save my money - that was a whole weeks pay cutting one neighbors grass back then.

The boy that owned the ham radio gear, took my dad's Knight Kit CB radio home to Michigan with him and turned it into a decent 10 meters rig and never came back.
By that time he got involved in women and drugs and we never saw him or dad's old cb radio ever again.

Here was a article out of the local newspaper I was talking about last night about the 911 and the cell phones going down at the local county seat. No system, regardless of how high tech is invincible.

Outage causes 911 Center to activate emergency plan | Punxsutawney Spirit
 

Token

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Well Token - my listening of Amateur Radio started around 1970 and my using Amateur Radio started around 1978. only when I started using amateur radio, it was not two meters.
More like 10 / 20 and 40 meters and some CW.
A friend of mine had a General License at that time and we spent a whole summer on the radio.

<<<snip>>>

My family was poor and I was obviously poor and even $5.00 for the Novice exam would have been a hardship - would have had to save my money - that was a whole weeks pay cutting one neighbors grass back then.

Ahhh, so like many you were exposed to ham radio early, but for various reasons did not get licensed until latter. When did you get your ticket? You alluded to VE status earlier, so maybe Extra?

Prior to the early 90’s most hams probably did not start with 2M, or VHF or UHF. Most probably started with 80/40/15/10 meters and CW since it was pretty common to start as a Novice for at least a short while before moving on to Tech or General. At that time a Tech was someone who had passed the Novice written test, the Novice code test, and the General written test, basically a General with only the 5 WPM Novice code. There was not a separate “Technician” test.

To tie into this thread, and the OPs question, it is possible that this is the reason 2M is so unused in some locations now. 2M, and local rag chewing, was not a “primary” reason to get into ham radio. HF, DX, building equipment/antennas, experimenting, etc were the primary motivators. 2M was the easy thing to throw in the car or on the workbench and use while you were doing something else. Also, while a Hammarlund, Heathkit, Collins, etc rig took up a lot of space under the dash a 2M 10 channel rock bound radio did not. So 2M was not often the first exposure a ham had to ham radio. He quite often established other interest in radio before getting on 2M/70cm. This might have built a more stable foundation in ham radio.

Today, a guy might get a license, get a 2M handheld or mobile, maybe a dual bander, and that might be the only radio he has. If that is the case I can see where the same people, on the same repeaters, at the same times, might get very old, very quick, and someone would drift away from using the radio.

Gabbing with a few locals on VHF/UHF is just not going to keep the bands busy for long, in my opinion. The locals I tend to talk with are on multiple bands at once. Tonight we might be on 2M, tomorrow maybe 40M or 80M. Or maybe several bands in a night. This typically brings other people in also, we fire up on some HF freq and others jump in we have maybe never talked with.

Diversity is where it is at, triple chocolate cake for desert may be great, but eating it after every meal, every day, for years on end will make it fade in appeal. Try some microwave, try HF, build some gear, build antennas, if digital is your thing try those modes on any band.

T!
 

zz0468

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Some people come to ham radio to find something fun to do. Others come to find something to gripe about. It goes to show, there's something in this hobby for everyone.
 

902

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there is a few problems with 2m these days in most areas...
2. alot of repeaters have owners who don't want anyone but him and his friends on it, or they have draconian rules for using the machine (you know the omg cant talk about politics oh dont talk religion, oh don't be telling any jokes, also don't be entertaining to listen to and tell it how it really is. we just want you to key up and you MUST act like your a police dispatcher with the K9AAA this is K9BBB crap dont you dare just key up and say hi bob whats up? cause if you do we will just turn the machine off.
Well... speaking from the perspective of a non-club repeater owner who doesn't accept money from other people to keep the repeaters running, I consider myself a "benevolent autocrat." I like the repeaters being used, but one of the repeaters has a specific purpose (primarily keeping in touch with family members). Since I built and maintain the repeaters myself, I would have a problem with a group of people I don't know who claim the right to eminent domain and retask my repeater to something else without at least asking (I probably wouldn't say "no" but it's a courtesy thing, after all, I'd be subsidizing whatever it was). It's not a free-for-all, but it's not the Iron Curtain, either.

That aside, I personally don't like hamspeak ("Hi hi" and the nervous laugh some people feel compelled to insert into their transmissions when they've exhausted what they were going to say and are just holding the button down). I love to talk politics on the air and have had epic discussions with people of varied viewpoints. We never solved anything and no one ever convinced me they were 100% right (nor have I ever convinced them), but it makes for really great discussion. I learn stuff. I (and the group that gravitated to the repeater) love kidding around. It's not heard on many of the mainstream systems, either, because we're too busy being politically correct. Back in the day, we had one guy who was rather... loose... with his dating. One father's day, a bunch of us did a Les Nessman-like skit for him where we described him going up and down the main street in the shopping district in the Popemobile waving at all of his kids. We also watched TV shows and movies on HBO and threw out commentary, like Mystery Science Theater 3K. It was a bunch of things.

We don't do it anymore. Mostly because many of us grew up (not me, obviously), married off, and moved out all over the country. A few of us are SK now. Sadly, things change and people in a group can't be replaced and don't necessarily replenish like they might on a TV show.

It's been said many times in this thread. Once more. It's what we make of it.
 

902

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...I wouldn't pass up a free MSR2000 just because they need crystals. Those are excellent radios as well...
Mmmm... Mitreks in a box. Very high local oscillator levels (wreaked havoc with other things on site, especially if you had T2-2R bases) and you'd be reflowing the PAs quite frequently if they were racking up consistent airtime. If I remember right from years ago, the repetitive expansion and contraction of heating and cooling pretty much creates cold solder joints on the B+ bus and you'd need to go to the site to reflow it with a higher temperature solder, like silver solder.

Now an MSF5000... :D
 

zz0468

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Well... speaking from the perspective of a non-club repeater owner who doesn't accept money from other people to keep the repeaters running, I consider myself a "benevolent autocrat."

That's one of the most effective forms of governance of a repeater. A benevolent oligarchy is also quite effective, when the controlling members agree with how things should run.

I like the repeaters being used, but one of the repeaters has a specific purpose (primarily keeping in touch with family members). Since I built and maintain the repeaters myself, I would have a problem with a group of people I don't know who claim the right to eminent domain and retask my repeater to something else without at least asking...

This is a common fallacy amongst amateurs who think that all repeaters should be open and fair game. That's not how it works, and in most cases, if they don't trample on the repeater owners, they can usually wind up getting access to what they need.

(I probably wouldn't say "no" but it's a courtesy thing, after all, I'd be subsidizing whatever it was). It's not a free-for-all, but it's not the Iron Curtain, either.

...One father's day, a bunch of us did a Les Nessman-like skit for him where we described him going up and down the main street in the shopping district in the Popemobile waving at all of his kids...

That's hilarious, and a good example of how tight knit a repeater community can be.
 

902

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A common misconception about linked wide area repeaters is that they are spectrum inefficient. But consider a couple of things...

Many really wide area systems are using the same frequencies over and over. There may be overlapping coverage, but that allows a system to have pretty solid coverage in it's service area. There are some good reasons to want to do that, especially if the system is made available for emergency communications. It's an excellent resource when the need arises. Simulcasting in the same frequency can't or shouldn't always be done, and eliminates the the possibility of breaking the larger system into smaller stand-alone components if a specific event requires it.

The other thing to consider is large systems tend to gather a large membership of people who actually use it, as opposed to myriads of repeaters occupying frequencies that rarely ever get used. If you were to measure number of QSO's per KHz of bandwidth occupied, large linked systems become the hands down winner when it comes to spectrum efficiency.

Food for thought...
I never thought of QSOs per kHz as a metric, but I suppose. I looked at it more like QSOs per square mile over population. It's still better than zero over whatever. It's not a problem these days, but I've always been more impressed with defined service areas and spectrum reuse. Ham radio's not necessarily like that, because our service area tends to be whatever range we can achieve down to the noisefloor.

Your point about being able to break the link and have a discrete local resource if it were needed is an important one. If that's a feature engineered into the system, then I do think it's worthwhile.

I'm having mixed feelings about using the convenience of "emergency communications" ("EMCOMM"). Not your use of the term, but just the overall philosophy. I believe in it, but there seems to be an abundance of groups who have no affiliation to anything and no one in their right mind would ever call them up. Now, if maybe their excuse is "personal preparedness," well, okay. That's a group's prerogative, but not everything qualifies as "emcomm" unless there's been some kind of established liaison and rapport with whomever the intended recipient is.
 

zz0468

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I never thought of QSOs per kHz as a metric, but I suppose. I looked at it more like QSOs per square mile over population.

It's the same sort of idea... not intended to be a scientific measure of activity, but when you think of it in terms like that, it winds up being a relatively modest chunk of spectrum used by a lot of people, as opposed to a relatively modest chunk of spectrum used by very few people.

Either way, it can deflate some of the criticisms that occur about the use of wide area systems. They're usually pretty busy and have an active participating membership.

Your point about being able to break the link and have a discrete local resource if it were needed is an important one. If that's a feature engineered into the system, then I do think it's worthwhile.

That's a capability that SHOULD be built into every multi-site system. Whether or not many do is anyone's guess. Most, if not all, the commercial controllers being used out there today support that sort of operation.

I'm having mixed feelings about using the convenience of "emergency communications" ("EMCOMM"). Not your use of the term, but just the overall philosophy. I believe in it, but there seems to be an abundance of groups who have no affiliation to anything and no one in their right mind would ever call them up.

I share the mixed feelings you have. The term is over used, and there is a glut of repeater groups and other ham clubs that use that as a justification for their existence. Public service is only one of several activities that is used within Part 97 rules to justify the existence of ham radio.

I do know that some public service agencies, such as the Red Cross, look at ham radio as just one of several radio resources they can use, and it's not the primary one. In an emergency, they have a need to be able to hand a radio to someone for use, and not have to worry about whether that person is a ham, or whether a ham has to tag along. You can't do that with amateur radio, so hams take a back seat. Or no seat at all.

I know of one particular repeater owner out here who makes a big deal about how his repeater is a "true EMCOMM repeater!", but there is no official affiliation with anyone, no nets are ever conducted, and no one ever uses the damned thing. Yet, there is this level of perceived self-importance with that individual that turns off organizations like the Red Cross, and local municipalities. It leaves a bad taste in their mouths when it comes to ham radio. We can be our own worst enemy.

Now, if maybe their excuse is "personal preparedness," well, okay. That's a group's prerogative, but not everything qualifies as "emcomm" unless there's been some kind of established liaison and rapport with whomever the intended recipient is.

Absolutely correct. What many hams don't understand is, it's perfectly justifiable to put up a repeater that's merely a community social gathering place, or a venue for technical experimentation. It doesn't have to be there for emergencies. It's just nice that it can be.
 
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newsphotog

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I feel sorry for all you guys. 2m repeater and simplex operation has increased remarkably since I was licensed in 2008. They're not old farts, either.
 

k3cfc

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I feel sorry for all you guys. 2m repeater and simplex operation has increased remarkably since I was licensed in 2008. They're not old farts, either.

Oh yea! where do you live? out of the 35 repeaters i can hit in my area there is a few maybe sometimes you will hear it being used.
 

W2IBC

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And yet another solvable problem. Your area has only 3 repeaters, and they're always dead? Get your group together and put up a repeater. Sounds like your area is RIPE for a decent one.

Planning on it. it dose take money (want to donate?) however. it will end up a odd-split machine since every other freq. is pretty much taken. (and god dose it suck when 2 meters open up just ever so slightly)

But 3 repeaters in this county. all dead 1 even has IRLP.. and it sits idle most of the time. never hear much of anything on the machines in the surrounding counties cept for the 700...

all we need is a good machine (tubes welcome!) and about 900ft and we could bring the wild bunch live across Indiana!
 
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