Whistler Fake News

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trentbob

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gtaman... I just wanted to make sure we didn't go OT here. So maybe we can start another thread letting people know there is an alternative if they find that their radio does not work as falsely advertised on simulcast systems as they have a right to know. I have heard the same rumors about Relm Radio making a scanner in the absence of any other company offering one that works properly with simulcast and LSM. I can understand the increase in sales lately. I have been getting quite a bit of feedback from people who are not active on RR but are finding out about this thread and agree with what is being said here. Most of them are First Responders. I don't think Whistler has any idea how many p2 systems there are in this region. Thanks gtaman.
 
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trentbob

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Well everybody I guess you can hear the crickets chirping. I was hoping Whistler would have gotten in front of this. I see on RR 5000 people have read this thread. Well it's actually a lot more than that as this is now on Google searches. In my 40 years as a newspaperman I am very well connected in this part of the country and I am overwhelmed by the response on my official email at work. I have always been an advocate for Consumer Protection and I'm proud of my record in that area. Where is the head of this company? Wendy Whistler is a PR person and is stuck in the middle of this and at this point the response should not come from her. With Consumer Fraud on this level the response should come from the head of the company. The comments below on behalf of Whistler were insulting and inappropriate. This is not just an "inconvenience" for us that the radios don't work on the systems we need to hear even though you claim they do. Fixing this problem should have been your priority before anything else was developed. When you realized that the PSR 800 and 900 could not be modified to handle LSM you should not have falsely advertised that your radios were P2 simulcast capable. Let this be a consumer protection warning to the country... if you need to hear a phase II 700 megahertz simulcast system make sure that these radios work on your particular system in all applications portable and mobile system-wide. If they don't you'll be saved the trouble of returning the radio, having to use all the gimmicks like paint cans, paper clips, yagis (on your car?) or missing six words out of 10 on all transmissions or just missing the transmission altogether. Whistler management: if you come out with a fix for this problem in a timely fashion I for one as a professional will stand up for you and spread the word of my praise.
 
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gtaman

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Well everybody I guess you can hear the crickets chirping. I was hoping Whistler would have gotten in front of this. I see on RR 5000 people have read this thread. Well it's actually a lot more than that as this is now on Google searches. In my 40 years as a newspaperman I am very well connected in this part of the country and I am overwhelmed by the response on my official email at work. I have always been an advocate for Consumer Protection and I'm proud of my record in that area. Where is the head of this company? Wendy Whistler is a PR person and is stuck in the middle of this and at this point the response should not come from her. With Consumer Fraud on this level the response should come from the head of the company. The comments below on behalf of Whistler were insulting and inappropriate. This is not just an "inconvenience" for us that the radios don't work on the systems we need to hear even though you claim they do. Fixing this problem should have been your priority before anything else was developed. When you realized that the PSR 800 and 900 could not be modified to handle LSM you should not have falsely advertised that your radios were P2 simulcast capable. Let this be a consumer protection warning to the country... if you need to hear a phase II 700 megahertz simulcast system make sure that these radios work on your particular system in all applications portable and mobile system-wide. If they don't you'll be saved the trouble of returning the radio, having to use all the gimmicks like paint cans, paper clips, yagis (on your car?) or missing six words out of 10 on all transmissions or just missing the transmission altogether. Whistler management: if you come out with a fix for this problem in a timely fashion I for one as a professional will stand up for you and spread the word of my praise.

Uniden is responsible too. They have know about LSM issues since 2009.
 

trentbob

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Yes gtaman and they have had their rears kicked over it too. You notice that they are still pushing those long in the tooth x36s as their Flagship scanners. I have no doubt the release of a new scanner series that handles LSM, has DMR and NXND is near release from Uniden. RIP Whistler.
 
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Blackswan73

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I have had four whistler scanners and no complaints. I had a 536, but sold it because I hated the muffled, distorted audio. I currently have a 1095, and 1080, plus a HP2. Love all three of them. All work very well for me, and the audio is crisp and clear on all three. You pays your money and takes your choice.
 

Nasby

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Yes gtaman and they have had their rears kicked over it too. You notice that they are still pushing those long in the tooth x36s as their Flagship scanners. I have no doubt the release of a new scanner series that handles LSM, has DMR and NXND is near release from Uniden. RIP Whistler.

I'm not trying to be a wise guy. But is this comment meant to be sarcastic or do you feel that Uniden really will conquer the LSM problems?

I'm sure there will be a huge payday for whichever company does find a solution.
 

SCPD

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I have been complaining about the RF performance and I get told to .. 'shut up and stop complaining'. Sure .. I am what some may call a complainer, but if no one kept the scanner manufacturers on their toes, it would be a mess and no progress would ever be made.

I feel that I am 100% justified cause when the scanner stops receiving anything .. that is an issue. My setup is not that unusual and it is pretty sad that I have to put the antenna inside my vehicle cause it cannot handle it.
 

trentbob

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Yes everybody I agree that GRE/ Whistler radios have had better audio on certain digital systems than the X 36s which do work on my P2 simulcast systems but are so muffled, garbled and distorted they are useless. We are talking about one specific type of system here which is Phase 2 simulcast. That means you can't pick the towers you want to hear. When you program it the sites just say "simulcast" Let's not confuse the issue and make this a ******* match about which company is better. We are talking about a specific phase 2 simulcast system that most of the country does NOT monitor so you are not complaining, that's why Whistler said it's not a priority. In my neck of the woods this is the main system everybody uses now. If the radio works for you on this specific system in fixed and mobile applications system-wide then congratulations you are a lucky man. There are p2 simulcast systems where these radios do not work because of location to towers and the number of towers and the distance between the towers causes LSM. It's different in metropolitan areas. We are talking about Phase 2 simulcast systems that you have read all of the posts about devising gimmicks to make them work. I appreciate your comments and again if you're talking about a P2 simulcast system that works in all applications system-wide consider yourself a lucky man. It doesn't work for all of us.
 

gtaman

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Honestly the manufacturer that can do LSM first will be the game changer. Remember GRE was the first manufacturer to have PHASE 2 with the PSR800. Uniden was the first with Provoice. Whistler came back with DMR then NXDN. Uniden has DMR but no NXDN yet.


It's a coin toss right now.
 

trentbob

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I have no specific information about a new Uniden scanner but let's just say... in time the entire country will be using systems like I'm talking about that are subject to LSM. If no scanner company wants to spend the money to make a radio that works then neither company will exist anymore or a new company like Relm will surface. I think I've been pretty specific and pointed about what the situation is here and how it is unfair to this community. I want to thank you edmscan for starting this thread with such a great title. It has gone far beyond RR. Whistler's response speaks for itself. I have been upset about this issue because the radios don't work in my region. I hope this helps other people from wasting their money or having to return the radio.
 

SCPD

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But of course trentbob, you know that the original topic was not LSM and I even noted this was not another LSM thread, but you have turned it into one.

So I don't think that you have much room to tell others what to say here .. cause that is pretty much the pot calling the kettle black.

Me .. still eating my popcorn, enjoying the **** show. Maybe you need to start a Fake News - LSM Edition ?

But whatever .. I think that Whistler has likely read this thread, they just are not going to comment and I cannot blame them. When it has almost 6,000 views, that says that people are interested .. or they just like fake news.
 
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trentbob

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gtaman... you mean GRE was the first to CLAIM they had Phase 2. It didn't work any better then on the psr-800 than it does now on the TRX series. LOL
 

jcardani

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There are a few misconceptions on this thread. First, LSM simulcast is used for P25 Phase 1 and 2 - not just Phase 2. So the issue spans all 9600 P25 systems with simulcast towers.

Second, LSM issues can be corrected in scanners a lot easier than some believe. It all comes down to a re-design of the receiver's to I/Q demodulation rather than limiter-discriminator. And implementing the appropriate costas-loop logic. If it can be done by a volunteer in OP-25 I am sure Uniden Japan's engineers would have no problem ;)

See Max Parke's web pages:

A 455 KHz IF Downconverter for Digital Radio Reception
LSM Gallery
LSM 101
LSM Gallery - Page 2
 

trentbob

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Yes Joe I know about simulcast being on Phase 1 and the LSM problems in the city of Philadelphia where I work and use an apx 7000 because the scanners don't work well in the mobile application in all parts of the city especially the Whistler scanners. I really do understand LSM. We also have major issues now on the Bucks County P2 system not to mention Camden City. I remember you for a long time. I remember Gene Hughes when he came out with his frequency listings I think in the early seventies. I also followed crb research and had all their listings. I always enjoyed your frequency guides as they were the best. I started monitoring when I was 11 and now I'm 63. It's a pleasure to meet you. Your observations and comments should be followed closely as you are a true expert.
Edmscan, it's not as if I'm trying to tell people what to say but I have not been on here for a long time and I do remember the heavy-handed moderation and censorship when people went OT which seems to have lightened up considerably to the credit of RR. I did feel what we were talking about was Whistler fake news. For the good of the community I wanted to stay on the simulcast issue. Sorry to step on your toes as the op. As I said before I found your observations about RF front end overload very valid. I hope we did some good for this community here. Again thanks for the great title of the thread and I apologize to you.
 

trentbob

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PS... Edmscan, I knew you were enjoying the ****storm when you said "grabbing the popcorn" with a smile... I kind of took that as a nod. Thanks again.
 

SCPD

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trentbob .... I have to believe that Whistler has read this thread but they will never say anything publicly.

Some here .. myself and people like Boatanchor are well aware of the performance issues of these radios. I also got word from my one friend that I can test the TRX-2 in a while regarding its mobile performance. I will be comparing it vs the 1095 platform presently installed.

Whistler are surely well aware of the issues we have spoken about here .. only time will tell what happens.

I believe that the answer for some .. a real radio. For some, that would not be an option, thus the scanner market.

I personally have been using commercial radios for 20 years because .. the scanners just pale in comparison in many many ways. But .. they are not scanners when it comes to frequency coverage.

It is a tossup between performance and convenience. If it was not an install nightmare putting the commercial radio in my vehicle, that would be my current answer.

I do not care that much about the topic .. but the LSM thing has been beaten to death and why I am more interested in the poor RF performance of the scanners in some environments, a different issue then LSM.

Me ... I am still just a voice and I have said my bit, it is now up to Whistler to act on the concerns of its customers.
 

Mike_G_D

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Per the OP's OP...

Man, I gotta grin in a weird way as I was beating that drum waaaayyy back, way back before even the old Strong Signals site was in its heyday.

Originally, for me, it was broad-as-a-barn door IF selectivity rapidly followed by lower-than-barely-acceptable (barely acceptable out in the middle of nowhere 100 or more miles from the nearest city) dynamic range and barely-acceptable-if-at-all-present front end filtering. Then were added "Noise Figure?! We donneednostinkin' Noise Figure!!" And freq. stability of LO, poor shielding of stages....and on and on.

For the front end up to the first down conversion:

Uniden determined the least they could get away with and still make it work in many cases and went with that.

GRE determined the least they could get away with and still make it work in many cases and then took it down a few more notches and THEN went with THAT. Well it works out in deep space between galaxies...

For the first IF through to the baseband demodulation:

Initially it was kinda the same but then, from the PSR500 onward GRE got a little more interesting and actually included an almost decent narrow IF filter selection. It didn't really work in P25 mode (you could select it but it actually had no effect) nor in trunking but really helped in analog conventional signals...with some unfortunate side effects (squelch circuit issues, for example); also it wasn't available in search or Tune modes - could only be selected when directly programming a frequency into a memory. But it actually did make real separation of the narrower "narrowband" FM signals possible and practical unlike the Uniden's except for the x36 series. Still, then they went and completely neglected the audio processing of same opting instead to rely on a simple "audio boost" function for the user to manually select. Uniden, on the other hand, again with the exception of the x36 series, stuck with a fairly wide IF that is near useless when presented with a busy swath of closely spaced NFM signals unless you consider it "convenient" to just punch in one central frequency and hear everything +/- 25kHz...guess you could sorta-kinda consider that a "feature"...kinda sorta maybe. BUT...! Hey, unlike Uniden they DID get the audio processing right! Face palm and head shaking...go figure...

I think there was a time when "base units" differed significantly from their mobile and portable counterparts but that has long past. Now, in the interest of reducing costs and simplifying design efforts the usual approach is to make one primary RF/IF/Baseband design optimized for portable use and then use that in a mobile/base as well as a portable form. Primary difference between forms is audio amplifier design and power supply. Yes, you could use better filtering, shielding, and more power hungry RF amps with better dynamic range in a fixed larger size case as opposed to a smaller battery operated portable unit but then that would mean added design time, more and different parts selection, factory build time, and overall higher cost that just is no longer acceptable in a low margin niche consumer market.

LSM...well I've also beat that to death myself here as many know. I recall scratching my head at the use of a discriminator for P25 demodulation when I first found out about that design in consumer scanners. But, to be fair, I was in error as P25 C4FM (non-simulcast) is a constant envelope modulation which can be handled fine using a discriminator approach design. I came from an engineering background in DAMPS pi/4 CQPSK and was incorrectly looking at P25 Phase 1 from that point of view. But, when simulcast issues began rearing their ugly heads, it started to look relevant again.

Simply put - a true I/Q demodulator can decode anything, AM, FM, SSB, C4FM, CQPSK, QUAM, whatever, with the proper adjustments, etc. A discriminator is limited to constant envelope angle modulated signals only (well, technically above a certain low signal level spec.).

And that is with hardware designs.

Today, it is obvious to me that the software back end is the way to go going forward. OP25 proves this. Build your I/Q demodulation in software and feed it with your final hardware downconverted IF and damn near work bloody magic! Still requires a decent hardware RF front end and IF downconversion with all of the filtering, LO stability, noise figure, dynamic range, and shielding considerations for best performance but the flexibility in the demodulation is near bliss compared to what I had to work with twenty years ago.

I think the primary reason manufacturers of consumer scanners don't (or didn't) use hardware I/Q demodulation circuits is that there were/are no low cost large scale antenna-to-audio-amp RF IC's suited for general purpose wideband receiver applications. To keep costs and design time down they relied on such large scale system-on-a-chip based designs. Outside of very specialized IC's which were limited to certain fixed band uses like cellular phones and WiFi, there were only the much higher cost professional IC's which were/are probably limited in distribution to designers of professional gear.

Now with the magic of SDR approaches, however, a different design potential presents itself. Until we have, however, super wideband A/D converters with super high dynamic range it looks to me like the best approach is to use a combination of tried-and-true RF hardware for the antenna to first or maybe final IF and SDR with a properly implemented I/Q demodulator.

-Mike
 

trentbob

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Edmscan...Yep I hear you brother. I would be lost without my real radio. I'm sure you're familiar with the one I use. It is UHF - 2 and 7 - 800... we still have a handful of VHF - High stuff that we have to listen to so we really need scanners too. Corporations that run the scanner companies are there to make money from their customers not necessarily to serve their needs. I think that's the problem here in a nutshell. I never come on this site anymore and participate as much as I did on your thread and you probably won't see me again which I'm sure Whistler is happy about. As a professional consumer advocate I just couldn't resist that eye catching title. 73's.
 
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SCPD

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I just ran out of popcorn .. that is hopefully about it for me until the TRX-2 mobile test in a few weeks. It is not my scanner .. so waiting for its owner to return from vacation.
 

trentbob

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Edmscan... I've used them both in a car, you will like the TRX 2 as opposed to the 1095. You can actually change scan list by direct entry on the keyboard instead of driving your car off the road trying to do it on a 1095 LOL ...unfortunately I think you will find the other issues that you will be examining are the same with each radio but you will be the best one to determine that. Have fun.
 
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