I do not think that anytime in the near future we will see most radio traffic being encrypted. Only a small portion of radio transmissions are encrypted and I suspect this will not change. I seriously doubt that encryption keys will fall into the hands of many hobbyists. Additionally, I believe that encrypted radio traffic is unlawful for us to monitor under federal law. I'm content to monitor what is currently available. With sixteen scanners I am only listening to a small portion of what is available to me.
Will encryption kill this hobby ?
- Thread starter Sownman
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There is an identified need for encryption in public safety. If by using encryption you can rid the budget of the Nextels and cell phones, cost considerations disappear over the life of the radio. The big issues are interoperablity. Some of it is being able to talk to someone else, but even more of it is having another department listen to you. P25 is not designed in such a way to enable operational encryption between systems and users in the way we are used on the internet, where encryption is seamless and accessable. It will take a leap of technology, cooperation and planning to make widespread full time encryption possible.
Sownman
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What are the costs involved ? I was searching the forum yesterday before starting this thread and found one older thread that made it sound like encryption is just a matter of an added card in existing gear or choosing to throw a switch in already equipped newer gear.
Steve
Steve
Sownman said:
The costs could be as high as replacing an entire system which, depending on the size of the system required, could run into the 100's of millions of dollars. Not every radio out there has an 'add on card' available, and not every system out there is capable of handling encryption.
OK guys, let's settle this and move on. That should have been done early on but confusion reigns. Digital is one thing, encryption is clearly another, apples and oranges all over again.
Systems like Tetra are simply digital, not encrypted. The reason why they can't be decoded is the encoding/decoding hardware is proprietary meaning scanner manufacturers would have to obtain a license for EACH one and use different hardware for each one, none are compatible. That would complicate things to the point that you couldn't afford to buy a scanner so equipped. Market economics are always the deciding factor.
As far as encryption goes, it's ILLEGAL to decode and monitor so no manufacturer in his right mind would produce a scanner so capable. It's been done with software and successfully prosecuted which put a quick end to the whole idea of cracking the codes. No arguments please, I had a front row seat and there were a few from Monitoring Times sitting in the gallery when it all went down. If somebody has a back issue oh, around 1999 you read how it all started and abruptly ended rather mysteriously. They never published the particulars, just slammed down the lid so don't expect a follow up story.
"P25 is not designed in such a way to enable operational encryption between systems and users in the way we are used on the internet, where encryption is seamless and accessible. It will take a leap of technology, cooperation and planning to make widespread full time encryption possible."
Er, yes and no. Public Key Encryption is what's used on the Internet much to the annoyance of the feds but that's another long and boring story. Ocean County NJ law enforcement already has an interop system and yes, it is encrypted. New Jersey has several and they're not so it all depends on the intended use. You seem to have the wrong concept of interoperability, they don't talk to each other directly, they use a common system. There's nothing insurmountable standing in the way of building wide area systems, linked systems or even a nationwide network, it's been done long ago by Amateur Radio only we're not allowed encryption. BTW two of ours are worldwide, imagine that.
Systems like Tetra are simply digital, not encrypted. The reason why they can't be decoded is the encoding/decoding hardware is proprietary meaning scanner manufacturers would have to obtain a license for EACH one and use different hardware for each one, none are compatible. That would complicate things to the point that you couldn't afford to buy a scanner so equipped. Market economics are always the deciding factor.
As far as encryption goes, it's ILLEGAL to decode and monitor so no manufacturer in his right mind would produce a scanner so capable. It's been done with software and successfully prosecuted which put a quick end to the whole idea of cracking the codes. No arguments please, I had a front row seat and there were a few from Monitoring Times sitting in the gallery when it all went down. If somebody has a back issue oh, around 1999 you read how it all started and abruptly ended rather mysteriously. They never published the particulars, just slammed down the lid so don't expect a follow up story.
"P25 is not designed in such a way to enable operational encryption between systems and users in the way we are used on the internet, where encryption is seamless and accessible. It will take a leap of technology, cooperation and planning to make widespread full time encryption possible."
Er, yes and no. Public Key Encryption is what's used on the Internet much to the annoyance of the feds but that's another long and boring story. Ocean County NJ law enforcement already has an interop system and yes, it is encrypted. New Jersey has several and they're not so it all depends on the intended use. You seem to have the wrong concept of interoperability, they don't talk to each other directly, they use a common system. There's nothing insurmountable standing in the way of building wide area systems, linked systems or even a nationwide network, it's been done long ago by Amateur Radio only we're not allowed encryption. BTW two of ours are worldwide, imagine that.
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It depends on what systems we are talking about. With the adoption of TDMA it will make monitoring difficult.
Here we have a national TETRA system with TEA end-to-end encryption so no one will be listening in. Yes that’s good but what I ask why are we encrypting, is it to prevent casual listeners, petty thieves from gaining bits of information or do they believe that big threats such as terrorists or large organised crime groups will be locked out of the information loop. I think if they wanted to the info it would be got 'on the inside' not over a radio transmission.
Also I believe stage 2 P25 is due to be TDMA which is good in terms of technology & spectrum efficiency (here its 4 timeslots on one 12.5khz frequency) but scanner manufactures will have a hard time getting onto this. I imagine.
Companies such as Tait are actively promoting encryption on their systems (possibly because it gets them more money) but as said, it all depends on cost and budget.
Here we have a national TETRA system with TEA end-to-end encryption so no one will be listening in. Yes that’s good but what I ask why are we encrypting, is it to prevent casual listeners, petty thieves from gaining bits of information or do they believe that big threats such as terrorists or large organised crime groups will be locked out of the information loop. I think if they wanted to the info it would be got 'on the inside' not over a radio transmission.
Also I believe stage 2 P25 is due to be TDMA which is good in terms of technology & spectrum efficiency (here its 4 timeslots on one 12.5khz frequency) but scanner manufactures will have a hard time getting onto this. I imagine.
Companies such as Tait are actively promoting encryption on their systems (possibly because it gets them more money) but as said, it all depends on cost and budget.
N
N_Jay
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citylink_uk said:
TETRA is 4 slots in 25 kHz
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Yes sorry, just came back to the thread to alter it! Good job someone is still awake
!
!bigray246
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OK heres another question. What about the news media? If most depts. go encrypted how is the news going to report stuff? Do they have the right to recieve breaking news?
eventually yes... things are slowly moving towards unmonitorable systems, and eventually there will be hardly anything to listen to.. Things like Tetra and Opensky are the way of the future. I give it 20 more years TOPS..
Eventually there will be 1 statewide system for each state with separate talk groups allocated to all the municipalities and cities. It wont be monitorable (legally).
It will be at such time where the entire hobby will move underground and will use radios connected to computers running decrypting software..
Eventually there will be 1 statewide system for each state with separate talk groups allocated to all the municipalities and cities. It wont be monitorable (legally).
It will be at such time where the entire hobby will move underground and will use radios connected to computers running decrypting software..
N
N_Jay
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I think it is called "Reporting", but you better check with an expert.bigray246 said:
No. They have the right to go FIND it!bigray246 said:
Now is the time to start making nice with area radio shops and tech's and to start saving up a bribe/equipment fund to get the info and equipment needed
When this goes down i see a lot of surplus gear with encryption modules being hacked by local radio shops into scanners able to monitor unmonitorable systems.
In essense you will be creating a monitoring underground, just like when the satelite TV/Cable when encryption.
same thing with p2p.
This will get very interesting.
and for $100,000.00 any one can have Digital Cell phone scanners shipped in from overseas to be able to monitor the new digital cell phones, so it's not a stretch that radio's for encrypted systems will be popping up in hobbyists and probably criminals hands as well.
When this goes down i see a lot of surplus gear with encryption modules being hacked by local radio shops into scanners able to monitor unmonitorable systems.
In essense you will be creating a monitoring underground, just like when the satelite TV/Cable when encryption.
same thing with p2p.
This will get very interesting.
and for $100,000.00 any one can have Digital Cell phone scanners shipped in from overseas to be able to monitor the new digital cell phones, so it's not a stretch that radio's for encrypted systems will be popping up in hobbyists and probably criminals hands as well.
kc8gpd said:
You clearly don't understand the nature of the encryption equipment being used. Even if one could successfully find the proper key out of the several hundred trillion available, simply updating the key with a new one would render all that work useless. It's nothing like the encryption that was used on satellite/cable tv. Nothing at all...
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N_Jay
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kc8gpd said:
You are still missing the whole "key" thing!:roll: :roll: :roll:
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N_Jay
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zz0468 said:
It is fairly common, but it does not establish the RIGHT to have one.
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N_Jay
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Stop agreeing with me!:twisted:zz0468 said:
Its bad for your reputation!:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Sownman said:
P25 is slowly being phased in, and not everyone will go out and spend the money **now ** for a scanner ; P25 capable, so there is a number of scanner hobbiest out there that will be in the dark with some agencys and frequencys. When P25 capable scanners come down in price, they may go get one. Until then...all they get for now is static.
You can read here on RR.com of all the military trafffic that occurs in the clear. On the Federal Forums, there is some threads of radio trafffic in the clear. West Virginia , or Fed Forums, had a thread of a female on a fed freq doing a surveillance.
I used encrypted radios ( Motorola ) while in the Military. Both Conus and overseas. Our conversations were encrypted for a reason. Most of all, at the time; was for "our" safety.
100% encryption. Not even close. Railroad, Military, Aeronautical, and Marine bands just to name a few...most likley will not even come close. Only a small percentage of local public safety agencys will go encrypted. The Homeland Security Mission will most likely become greater as time passes by, and most state agencys will become encryption capable to keep privledged info from getting out, and to coordinate / communicate with Federal Agencys...But that is expected. Will another 9/11 increase the difficulty of receiving Public Safety Communications? What can PSAPS handle?
Purpose / use / availabilty / justifications / cost ....Procurement and weeding out the problems.
My fourteen years in Public Safety, and I have yet to hear of a radio system that was installed at cost. Something happens, the price is increased. Problems with the voting system, the research was all wrong...and a different band should have been installed. A greater need for more repeaters than what was initailly designed...ect..ect..ect. Radio systems need experienced individuals who can deal...foresee problems, and stop them before they occur. And get the system up and running on the time frame promised.
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