t0xPro-197
Member
I just wounder since all states around us have a state wide trunk in p25.How long til georgia has one.
will georgia have a state wide p25 system?
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MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
it's doubtful, for two reasons: lack of funding, and lack of leadership at the state level.
Back in the 1990s the GTA started building a statewide analog 800MHz Motorola Smartzone system, a few sites went online (one in downtown ATL, one in Forsyth, GA and one near UGA). When the true cost came in, which was something in the $120-$200 million dollar range for MOBILE coverage statewide, the project was scrapped. Then a certain former governor who had ties to the Southern Company decided that their iDEN network was a better option for statewide radio.
In 2013, budgets are tight, and while many jurisdictions have found their own source for funding such expensive trunked radio systems (from Federal grant money to raising taxes through SPLOST), the state itself is in a budget crisis. A modern Astro 25 Smartzone OmniLink 700/800 phase 2 DTRS could easily run $250-300 million when all is said and done, not to mention the cost of running it (a full time support center, NOC, etc). Being that the majority of this state is RURAL to SEMI-RURAL, it just doesn't make good fiscal sense IMO.
You have counties with low populations in the majority of the southern part of the state, and then you have the mountains. 700/800 doesn't work well in mountainous regions, and even with low density sites, it's an expensive option.
Getting the existing jurisdictions with trunked radio systems to implement ISSI seems to be the course of action, but it's slow going. One agency cannot tell another what to do with that county/cities money and when to do it. Then you have the issue of software/hardware compatibility. Getting system, even from the same vendor, to play nice when one is a version X and the other Y is a technical nightmare.
The other part is overcoming egos and attitudes. A wise man once used the term "herding cats" in a presentation on interoperability a few years back, and this is a great analogy. What you have playing out in the North Fulton county area with the creation of the Unified Radio System is a fine example of people refusing to work with each other. This has to be one of the greatest mistakes and outright waste, fraud and abuse examples that those folks in North Fulton county are going to soon feel when the bill comes in. And boy won't they feel stupid when they realize they are paying TWICE for new public safety radio networks, as the Fulton county system is being replaced and will redundantly cover those same areas as the URS with the same level of performance and capacity. But nothing can force people, or groups, to work together or "talk to each other" if they don't want to or refuse to do so. IMO, the state giving the green light for the creation of the URS demonstrates this lack of leadership. They should have flexed their muscle and told the snobs in North Fulton to work with Fulton county and assimilate into the new Fulton DTRS, save the taxpayers money, and enhance end user interoperability, but that didn't happen.
The other side is to patch the many remaining agencies left on conventional radio systems and "other" networks like MotoTRBO and NEXEDGE using MotoBRIDGE voice over IP bridges. That is what that $10 million dollar GEWIN project was all about. And this is a great piece of technology that is the most underutilized system run by the GTA, the only bigger waste is the UASI overlay.
A statewide trunking system in this state? Not in this lifetime. I'll believe it when I see it.
Back in the 1990s the GTA started building a statewide analog 800MHz Motorola Smartzone system, a few sites went online (one in downtown ATL, one in Forsyth, GA and one near UGA). When the true cost came in, which was something in the $120-$200 million dollar range for MOBILE coverage statewide, the project was scrapped. Then a certain former governor who had ties to the Southern Company decided that their iDEN network was a better option for statewide radio.
In 2013, budgets are tight, and while many jurisdictions have found their own source for funding such expensive trunked radio systems (from Federal grant money to raising taxes through SPLOST), the state itself is in a budget crisis. A modern Astro 25 Smartzone OmniLink 700/800 phase 2 DTRS could easily run $250-300 million when all is said and done, not to mention the cost of running it (a full time support center, NOC, etc). Being that the majority of this state is RURAL to SEMI-RURAL, it just doesn't make good fiscal sense IMO.
You have counties with low populations in the majority of the southern part of the state, and then you have the mountains. 700/800 doesn't work well in mountainous regions, and even with low density sites, it's an expensive option.
Getting the existing jurisdictions with trunked radio systems to implement ISSI seems to be the course of action, but it's slow going. One agency cannot tell another what to do with that county/cities money and when to do it. Then you have the issue of software/hardware compatibility. Getting system, even from the same vendor, to play nice when one is a version X and the other Y is a technical nightmare.
The other part is overcoming egos and attitudes. A wise man once used the term "herding cats" in a presentation on interoperability a few years back, and this is a great analogy. What you have playing out in the North Fulton county area with the creation of the Unified Radio System is a fine example of people refusing to work with each other. This has to be one of the greatest mistakes and outright waste, fraud and abuse examples that those folks in North Fulton county are going to soon feel when the bill comes in. And boy won't they feel stupid when they realize they are paying TWICE for new public safety radio networks, as the Fulton county system is being replaced and will redundantly cover those same areas as the URS with the same level of performance and capacity. But nothing can force people, or groups, to work together or "talk to each other" if they don't want to or refuse to do so. IMO, the state giving the green light for the creation of the URS demonstrates this lack of leadership. They should have flexed their muscle and told the snobs in North Fulton to work with Fulton county and assimilate into the new Fulton DTRS, save the taxpayers money, and enhance end user interoperability, but that didn't happen.
The other side is to patch the many remaining agencies left on conventional radio systems and "other" networks like MotoTRBO and NEXEDGE using MotoBRIDGE voice over IP bridges. That is what that $10 million dollar GEWIN project was all about. And this is a great piece of technology that is the most underutilized system run by the GTA, the only bigger waste is the UASI overlay.
A statewide trunking system in this state? Not in this lifetime. I'll believe it when I see it.
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lep
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The poster shows his bias, typical of folks in/from ATL, by describing Georgia outside metro ATL as "rural of semi-rural." In MY part of the State, based in SAV, he have a 700 MHz P-25 trunking system that covers 6 counties so far, I-95 from the SC border to the FL border, and I-16 from Savannah to Statesboro.
The make up of the system is explained on the SEGARRN web site. At present 4 GSP posts are on the system with cars equipped location based radios. SEGARRN = southeast Georgia regional radio network.
We have our own GSP night hawks unit for hi-intensity DUI enforcement. Oh and right in the middle of the area we have Ft Stewart/Hunter AAF (now testing a 385 MHz P-25 system to replace their 405 MHz analog one). Ft Stewart is the home of the 3rd Infantry division and is the largest military base E of the Mississippi river.
The make up of the system is explained on the SEGARRN web site. At present 4 GSP posts are on the system with cars equipped location based radios. SEGARRN = southeast Georgia regional radio network.
We have our own GSP night hawks unit for hi-intensity DUI enforcement. Oh and right in the middle of the area we have Ft Stewart/Hunter AAF (now testing a 385 MHz P-25 system to replace their 405 MHz analog one). Ft Stewart is the home of the 3rd Infantry division and is the largest military base E of the Mississippi river.
t0xPro-197
Member
Well i see why we dont have it but i do beleve it would be a good idea minuse the cost.Im from Michigan and they have a state wide system buddy of mine told me its doing pretty well.I listend too some of it.Here Polk co ours went too that turbo system i hate that.As a hobbiest i dont go were they accident is nor do i gossip about it. Its just allways good too know what going on so you know too take adiffrent rout.Well at least i can wish on that it would be nice.Rather then tenn haven too add us witch is not bad .But id think that would get all confusen after awhile.I mean 2 differ states the 10 codes ect.iI just thought id ask as it seems states around us are doing that state wide.Yet georgia is not.Kinda odd in my option ;/.thanks for the answers.Allway good too learn from the Pros here
t0xPro-197
Member
N8IAA
Member
Large, yes, but not statewide. MTS2000des talks of why there is no statewide system. The politics involved is unbelievable! Interoperability will only happen when everyone goes back to using VHF. And that is what is done in my immediate area. My county PD is encrypted along with a county just north of me Hall. Every county that my county has to work with is not encrypted. Granted they have TGID's programmed in their radios, but dispatch still has to talk to the other dispatch. One county near me uses Mototrbo and encrypted it. Wait until Fulton county goes Phase II and none of the current scanners but the 800 can hear it, but oh no, they'll encrypt. I'm originally from Ohio where they do have a statewide system that works. Gawga is still back in the 1970's with their thinking.
Larry
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
What bias? Stating the facts. I was born in Cobb county, raised in this state. My facts come from having been all over this state. OUTSIDE of the less than 6 large cities (Atlanta, Macon, Columbus, Savannah) the MAJORITY of the COUNTIES in our state (159) are indeed, considered rural or semi-rural. We have many counties with populations under 50,000. Many of these areas are more than 100 miles from those population centers. Not everyone lives in this major metro areas. Most of these counties don't even have more than 1 deputy sheriff working the entire county on morning watch, with backup being a trooper from a post 40 miles away. They need some statewide DTRS to talk to Atlanta or Savannah when they can barely afford to pay a dispatcher $10 an hour, yeah right. Savannah is not a rural area. I never said it was.
I was describing places I have been: Terrell county, Pulaski, Turner, Wilcox...all those counties IN BETWEEN where you are and say, Columbus- and far south of Atlanta metro. Tell me with a straight face these places are anything BUT rural. Sure, you have small cities like Albany, Tifton and such- they are also spread out and lots of wide open spaces in between. Many governments have unified school districts and consolidated 911 centers because the populations are so low and spread out.
So tell me again why one of those sophisticated multisite trunking systems makes economic sense for these areas? I won't even start with the rural counties in north Georgia like Towns, Fannin, Union, Rabun and Murray to name a few. Look at the population counts per the US census.
Like I said, outside of the handful of large population centers over 250K people, most of Georgia is rural and spread out. The state budget for 2013 is shy of $850 million:
Summaries of Fiscal Year 2013 Proposed Executive Budgets | NASBO
so let's go out and blow a third of it on some statewide radio system no one outside of those large population centers will benefit from and then we can subtract another $50million a year or so to run it every year like Illinois with Starcom 21?
The military radio systems aren't paid for by state funds, so that has no relevance, and they will build them anywhere because they can. The rest of us live in the real world of not raising taxes and sticking it to the citizens who are already struggling to pay their light bills.
Statewide radio system, yeah right. We aren't Illinois, Michigan or Florida where it's all flat terrain either.
I'm in reality, won't you join me?
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
Georgia is not Michigan, Ohio, Indiana or Illinois. We have a very spread out population. Then (something those in the southern part of this state forget) we have rough terrain in the northern part of the state. They range from rolling hills to tall mountains. Lots of valleys and forests in between.
Building any radio communications or wireless system in an area like this is no easy task. If it's any indication of how rural the state is, look at the average cellular provider's coverage map of this state and take note of the many holes and areas without coverage altogether.
lep
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The 380 Mhz system (sys ID 058a) is still in testing and has very little traffic at present. A few TGs have been noted in this early phase but none so far have been submitted to rr.com.
lep
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Since the cellular coverage is revenue driven, the 'covered area' like many States, tends to be centered around Interstate highways. Even in Florida there is little coverage of the Everglades swamps. just as is the case in some parts of south Georgia.
t0xPro-197
Member
Well i wasnt knocking georgia ive been here little over 17 years just kinda wanted too know now i do but then i have too ask i was looking at countyes south of me harrilson and heard co i think herds avg is like 9,000 but i can see why they have it it makes it easyer too communcate with countys like Haralson County and Carroll. and were i live is stilla small town but they manged too spend 600,000 ona trunk system that you cant even hear and it comes out of our pockets i dont get it nor will i ever i guess afeww bad apples caused them too do that ...But i dont understand what youall are saying cause michigan is flat pretty much till you get too the upper part
t0xPro-197
Member
I still like the conv. over some trunk systems but ive realiy gotten into how p25 runs if setup right
t0xPro-197
Member
i ment i do smh
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
Exactly my point, no infrastructure is built where there is no one to use it.
Large statewide trunking systems do not generate revenue, yet they have a high cost to operate.
In a state where many of the counties I mention have little to no industry and scarce population, it makes no economic sense to put in infrastructure for such a system. Those counties seem to do just fine with their single channel conventional analog radio systems and they don't need $3000 radios.
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
the WARRS system was built with a great percentage of Federal grant money, as were many P25 phase I systems in the area. Much of that well has dried up, it isn't flowing out of Washington DC like it was back in 2004/2005.
The other issue all states face are the accelerated life cycles of these complex radio networks. You can no longer expect to get 10-15 or 20 years out of a radio system before it's obsolete. Today's vendors, one in particular, has lowered that number to 5-7, about on par with Microsoft operating system life cycle.
This is a ton of money to spend only to have to turn around and go through the constant forklift upgrades. Once you get done paying off the first one in 5 years, time to stay in debt and do it for the next.
That is what is wrong with this country and why we will never get out of debt.
b7spectra
EMS Dispatcher
The biggest thing in Georgia is the politics! We are in the top 8 most politically corrupt states in the nation. No one in Georgia goes into politics for the people, it's totally for the money and kick backs. School boards are under Federal indictment, Sheriffs are under Federal indictment, County CEO's (like the mayor of the county) are under Federal indictment. Corruption runs rampant throughout the state. If you want to see an honest politician, DO NOT come to Georgia.
Some of the 159 (yup! 159 counties only 2nd to Texas) counties are so poor that they have pooled their money and resources and put in multijurisdictional 800 P25 systems (SEGARREN, WARRES, OARS) and some have even consolidated dispatch centers (ChatComm, Middle Flint River) in order to cut down costs. State of Georgia, most likely, freeloads off of various 800 P25 systems so they can "effectively communicate" with the jurisdictions they are in.
Yeah, it would be nice to have a statewide system (I work at MetroAtlanta Ambulance Service as a dispatcher and all of our non-911 trucks are on SouthernLinc - like NexTel - and we have statewide coverage), but I don't foresee it in my lifetime.
Some of the 159 (yup! 159 counties only 2nd to Texas) counties are so poor that they have pooled their money and resources and put in multijurisdictional 800 P25 systems (SEGARREN, WARRES, OARS) and some have even consolidated dispatch centers (ChatComm, Middle Flint River) in order to cut down costs. State of Georgia, most likely, freeloads off of various 800 P25 systems so they can "effectively communicate" with the jurisdictions they are in.
Yeah, it would be nice to have a statewide system (I work at MetroAtlanta Ambulance Service as a dispatcher and all of our non-911 trucks are on SouthernLinc - like NexTel - and we have statewide coverage), but I don't foresee it in my lifetime.
rapidcharger
Member
Far more money to be made by the paymasters (Solutions companies) by keeping the status quo. Of course I suppose they can still do both. You got problems? We got solutions!
t0xPro-197
Member
I know i seen ona another forum that so systems run as high as 35 million.I dunno why they wanna get ride of conv.I mean just add freq that patches thru like a interlooping .i agree the people over this state are courrpt in this town alot they have been investagted by the FBI and state patrol for poassably planting evedence in people cars too get the quota.But in my home town grand raipds the entier police dept was found guilty of courption they fired the whole darn force and too replace it.I read that in the paper.the people in georgia are good folks the ones who run this state are not.
t0xPro-197
Member
you know they dont make the radios too last anymore cause its all about the buck.I remeber when radios lasted so 20 years now like you said you may get 5 at the most they are poorly built.If they gonna make people pay 3 gand for a radio it should at least last 15 years not 5 thats just wrong.In my Humble option
rapidcharger
Member
I don't think it's because they're poorly built. It's because when the radio is no longer a radio but a computer, the author of the software that controls the software and the network says this will have such and such expiration date before it's no longer supported and this radio will only work on this system and all other radios are blocked out or this type of encryption is what we're "throwing in" and that only works with a particular brand of radio. You also have NGO industry groups like APCO making recommendations that get readily adopted like they're the word of God that have been and continue to be the cause of such waste.
And it also helps to have a whole bunch of support on the inside to rally behind switching to something else because they stand to gain from it and the public doesn't know, doesn't understand or doesn't care.
A radio can be replaced easily by going to the system administrator or supply closet and pulling out another one. It's the software and all the complicated innards that dictate when a system's time is up.
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