Making the most of whats left of the VHF/UHF bands

[Spider255]

Oh, this is a combination of probably fifteen different factors but there are ways around it.

Certainly here in the UK things had started to get quiet on VHF and UHF by 2013 but there is still activity, just not as much as there was back in the 80s and 90s.

Get your radio out, turn it on and put calls out when and where you can. Enjoy the QSOs you get, even if they might be few and far between and you'll soon see a local group grow.

As for the idea of linking all of the analogue repeaters in the UK, that's not an achievable or wise idea for a number of reasons including efficiency and misbehaviour. Back in the late 1990s I tried to get approval for a 2m repeater with decent power and antennas at around 200m agl on a big site on a big hill but was turned down for exactly these reasons; whether anyone has made use of the new licensing regime around VHF repeaters I do not know but it would be interesting to try...perhaps I'll have another go.

Now, on to the good news...VHF and UHF are *not dead* but are just in use in ways that you might not see. UHF repeaters are fairly healthy but tend to be linked DV units. VHF repeaters are fairly quiet, which is a shame, but FM simplex can be pretty good if you choose the right time.

Get out there and transmit; if you only listen then you won't hear all the other stations listening...

I call out whenever I can. I even have days where I do nothing but call out on 2/70 and even on 4 meters whether that would be at home or out on a hill top.

Sadly many people have given up calling on V/UHF and I've heard at least 5 new'ish Hams who have said they have given up on V/UHF. In my area 2 meters has become the new 4 meter band.

As for misbehaviour on linked repeaters... I understand this concern completely... we need systems in place to prevent this where an abused repeater can be remotely shut down during that time, a team of volunteer fox hunters can be deployed to find the abusers which could also add some more opportunities to the hobby. We will need such systems in place to prevent abuse. There are also some other aspects of the hobby we must learn to ignore for example if an unlicensed, or abuser was to come on to the Ham bands we ignore them, pretend they are not there and they will soon give up.

 

[EAFrizzle]

Lots of good stuff in this thread. In addition to getting new hams into the hobby, former hams that have allowed their licenses to expire need some reason to renew. I let my ticket expire because of the attitudes of the repeater users in Houston, TX. They weren't the least bit shy about telling new hams (even ones who were operating correctly) to get off of their repeaters. These days, Houston's SkyWarn repeater only gets used when the club meets up for lunch or an out-of-state net is being run. In the hours before Beryl's landfall, the SkyWarn machine had been taken over by a net in Oregon, and not a peep from Houston users or the SkyWarn net. That let me know that SkyWarn is basically considered useless, at least in Houston. Let me save battery power for monitoring something useful in the situation.

Now that I'm in Dallas, maybe I can find enough simplex operators to have a reason to renew. I don't need any of the repeater ego-trips on Amateur or GMRS. I just like to talk. I don't care one bit about contesting, collecting contacts, etc. The guy that got me to get my ticket also let his expire. The reason? "There's nobody worth talking to anymore. It's clubs that don't want outsiders and contesters around here." Yep. The reason many licenses have expired isn't because people don't like radio anymore, but they don't seem to like the elitist culture that has developed in ham radio over the decades.


If someone would make an affordable SSB rig for 2m/70cm and/or other V/U bands, simplex would be a lot more useful and could reduce repeater use.

 

[ultrajv]

DMR repeaters are set up badly. They still follow poor practice by not having a permanent Talkgroup active. This was set up over 10 years ago to limit usage. Well it worked. Its about time the owners set them up so at least some activity is heard. If users dont key up, you hear nothing. They dont seem to know thats how it works currently.

There is so much activity on digital modes including DMR thats its hard to deal with but you wont hear it on repeaters due to outdated practices. I have a DMR hot spot and its active 24/7. Set on Hubnet for UK and TG9050 East Coast US for nights. Echolink, Allstar and Freestar are highly active as well but few repeaters have them on. A new exception is GB3KX in London.

I monitor 4m day and night, John G8MNY calls out 3 to 4pm most days, Adam G7CRQ is monitoring most times, both in Croydon area. There are local nets on Thursday and Friday evenings. Im in SE London and put out calls when i can though I have a S9 noisefloor during the day.

2E0BSL

 

[kayn1n32008]

If no changes are made then nothing goes forward or improves.

You are absolutely correct.

The way things are currently with the state of the upper bands I can see within 5 years all these dead repeaters are not going to be there anymore, ofcom may also take away large parts of the upper bands away, because if they are not being used we'll lose them forever.

Heard that before.

I don't mean to be negative here but what is the point in having hundreds of unused repeaters?

what's the point of linking hundreds of repeaters together?

Maybe link most of the repeaters together but leave a few out. If no changes are made then nothing will improve.

Who decides which ones to link and the ones to not link?

The hobby needs new fresh ideas with drastic changes to entice people to use the bands again instead of being left to rot.

Couldn't agree more.

Another idea would be to link all the analog repeaters together anyway but have it setup to where the link can be switched off at any given time for example if GB3DA are having a local net on the link can be turned off during that time then turned back on again after that.

Again, link them all to make noise? That's a waste of resources.

There also needs to be a good balance in this hobby because having internet echo links are nice on analog, having DMR repeaters connected to the internet is also nice but things like simplex without internet links are also important to maintain.

That's already being done.

DMR simplex? DMR Simplex would be nice to try out. Having a good balance is important.

I've used DMR, P25 and NXDN simplex.

 

[AB4BF]

Myself, I'm 70 YO and I hope I'm still around when the FCC allows amateur radio operators the use of Quantum Communications. We could talk to Beta Reticuli in real time (or unreal as you look at it...). Just think, the new amateurs of today have a lot to look forward to!

 

[Spider255]

Lots of good stuff in this thread. In addition to getting new hams into the hobby, former hams that have allowed their licenses to expire need some reason to renew. I let my ticket expire because of the attitudes of the repeater users in Houston, TX. They weren't the least bit shy about telling new hams (even ones who were operating correctly) to get off of their repeaters. These days, Houston's SkyWarn repeater only gets used when the club meets up for lunch or an out-of-state net is being run. In the hours before Beryl's landfall, the SkyWarn machine had been taken over by a net in Oregon, and not a peep from Houston users or the SkyWarn net. That let me know that SkyWarn is basically considered useless, at least in Houston. Let me save battery power for monitoring something useful in the situation.

Now that I'm in Dallas, maybe I can find enough simplex operators to have a reason to renew. I don't need any of the repeater ego-trips on Amateur or GMRS. I just like to talk. I don't care one bit about contesting, collecting contacts, etc. The guy that got me to get my ticket also let his expire. The reason? "There's nobody worth talking to anymore. It's clubs that don't want outsiders and contesters around here." Yep. The reason many licenses have expired isn't because people don't like radio anymore, but they don't seem to like the elitist culture that has developed in ham radio over the decades.


If someone would make an affordable SSB rig for 2m/70cm and/or other V/U bands, simplex would be a lot more useful and could reduce repeater use.

I hear ya... I know exactly what you mean, there were a few Hams like that when I first got licensed they didn't want me on there repeater joining in with there afternoon group net, there were also a few band police on 2 meters, high & mighty telling off new license holders, I remember when I got told I shouldn't be using yagi beams on 2 meters. I remember there was also a club and they changed venues and didn't want to tell any new comers about which new venue the club was being held at, the kinda group where if your face don't fit they don't want you in there group.

Those days seem to be long gone now that the upper bands are dead, most were old farts and there is a newer generation of Hams now that are not like that.

 

[kayn1n32008]

DMR repeaters are set up badly. They still follow poor practice by not having a permanent Talkgroup active.

It's not that the repeaters are set up badly. I find it's the worst of the worst mouth breathers on all the linked talkgroups. It got so bad, I finally removed most of them. All the TAC-31x's, World Wide, World Wide English. Dumped it all. I keep my local, provincial and country wide TG's only in my DMR radios.

There is so much activity on digital modes including DMR thats its hard to deal with but you wont hear it on repeaters due to outdated practices.

I can't stand the mouth breathers on DMR. Once I dumped majority of the linked talk groups, it was much more pleasant to listen to. Now I don't hear ham cram guys calling CQ, or giving 5/9 reports.

I have a DMR hot spot and its active 24/7. Set on Hubnet for UK and TG9050 East Coast US for nights.

This is why repeaters are silent. Most are just using a hotspot. I shake my head at the guys that install a mobile, a hotspot and use their cell phone to connect the hotspot to the wide area networks.

Echolink, Allstar and Freestar are highly active as well but few repeaters have them on.

Meh. More of the same, except with Echolink you get the people using apps on their phones or other data devices, with lots of packet loss and lousy audio. No thanks. I've been spoiled with high quality, properly deployed, digital LMR systems in my employment, that having to listen to analogue is tiresome at best, the wildy varying audio, picket fencing, hiss and static. Even with full quieting signals the beeps, boops and talking controllers just make me want to go over to the local P25 machine and listen to decent audio free of all of that and I will have full audio recovery. Even at signal strengths, that if it was analogue, I wouldn't be able to understand it at all.

People can enjoy their linked to everything, cross connected modes, lowest common denominator. Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[ultrajv]

It's not that the repeaters are set up badly. I find it's the worst of the worst mouth breathers on all the linked talkgroups. It got so bad, I finally removed most of them. All the TAC-31x's, World Wide, World Wide English. Dumped it all. I keep my local, provincial and country wide TG's only in my DMR radios.

I can't stand the mouth breathers on DMR. Once I dumped majority of the linked talk groups, it was much more pleasant to listen to. Now I don't hear ham cram guys calling CQ, or giving 5/9 reports.

This is why repeaters are silent. Most are just using a hotspot. I shake my head at the guys that install a mobile, a hotspot and use their cell phone to connect the hotspot to the wide area networks.

Meh. More of the same, except with Echolink you get the people using apps on their phones or other data devices, with lots of packet loss and lousy audio. No thanks. I've been spoiled with high quality, properly deployed, digital LMR systems in my employment, that having to listen to analogue is tiresome at best, the wildy varying audio, picket fencing, hiss and static. Even with full quieting signals the beeps, boops and talking controllers just make me want to go over to the local P25 machine and listen to decent audio free of all of that and I will have full audio recovery. Even at signal strengths, that if it was analogue, I wouldn't be able to understand it at all.

People can enjoy their linked to everything, cross connected modes, lowest common denominator. Garbage in, garbage out.

I use a hotspot because of the way digital repeaters are set up, not because I want to. I used to think there was no other way. DMR Repeaters dont allow me to enjoy listening to a conversation without keying up every 15 minutes or so to reactivate. That drove me to building a hotspot. I have 5 DMR repeaters set up as direct RF but I wont use them for the reasons I stated. Not sure what mouth breathers are lol

 

[kayn1n32008]

Not sure what mouth breathers are lol

Same idea as a LID operator.

 

[alcahuete]

So if GMRS is gaining popularity so much, while amateur radio is losing popularity, we have to ask ourselves why. My guess is that it's still the outdated test. I have been saying for years that we need a simple test that just covers the rules. Extra class? Sure, make it as hard as you want. But the entry license should cover nothing but the rules. It also should be online. Let's get people back on the air.

Get these folks on the ham bands and you're going to see an increase in VHF/UHF usage. That big organization will never promote it though, because they are all old folks who don't want change. They would still have CW on the test if they could.

 

[rf_patriot200]

If no changes are made then nothing goes forward or improves. The way things are currently with the state of the upper bands I can see within 5 years all these dead repeaters are not going to be there anymore, ofcom may also take away large parts of the upper bands away, because if they are not being used we'll lose them forever.

I don't mean to be negative here but what is the point in having hundreds of unused repeaters? I hear your point and I agree somewhat with you on that if these repeaters were actually used more than the odd five minutes of a day by the same 2 people to not being used at all. Maybe link most of the repeaters together but leave a few out. If no changes are made then nothing will improve.

The hobby needs new fresh ideas with drastic changes to entice people to use the bands again instead of being left to rot.

Another idea would be to link all the analog repeaters together anyway but have it setup to where the link can be switched off at any given time for example if GB3DA are having a local net on the link can be turned off during that time then turned back on again after that.

There also needs to be a good balance in this hobby because having internet echo links are nice on analog, having DMR repeaters connected to the internet is also nice but things like simplex without internet links are also important to maintain.

DMR simplex? DMR Simplex would be nice to try out. Having a good balance is important.

Dmr Simplex is handy, but the problem is finding someone who is on the same wavelength as you, Literally. Sadly, most of the ops locally that have Dmr, just have Analog stuff programmed. Or they're not even aware How to program Dmr for simplex.

 

[rf_patriot200]

So if GMRS is gaining popularity so much, while amateur radio is losing popularity, we have to ask ourselves why. My guess is that it's still the outdated test. I have been saying for years that we need a simple test that just covers the rules. Extra class? Sure, make it as hard as you want. But the entry license should cover nothing but the rules. It also should be online. Let's get people back on the air.

Get these folks on the ham bands and you're going to see an increase in VHF/UHF usage. That big organization will never promote it though, because they are all old folks who don't want change. They would still have CW on the test if they could.

The Tech test is already stupid Simple. At a recent VE session, there was a teenager that popped his Tech, and General class in one shot.

 

[mmckenna]

Get these folks on the ham bands and you're going to see an increase in VHF/UHF usage. That big organization will never promote it though, because they are all old folks who don't want change. They would still have CW on the test if they could.

Time to throw some chlorine in the question pool?

 

[Spider255]

People today would rather lay about on Zello.

 

[ladn]

Quite a few people that have done their ham course here, have never been heard on the air locally, because it's simply a tool for when they are wheeling.

I have had an interest in radio/electronics since I was a kid in the 1950's.

I didn't become a ham until the 1980's primarily because of the *BS* antiquated licensing requirements (code) and the testing protocols at the FCC office.

What pushed me over the edge the usefulness of ham radio in off highway (4-WHEELING) driving. I was leading commercial 4WD tours as a side gig and we used CB for communication because it didn't require a license and the equipment was widely available and not very technical. But CB was also plagued with mistreatments shooting skip. This was the "BC" era (before cellphones) I needed a better tool that provided a higher lever of reliability.

I begrudgingly learned the code and got my Technician license, quickly followed by a General upgrade. I incorporated ham radio into my 4WD tours (my partner was also a ham). We still used CB for our clients, but we now had reliable comms between the front and back of the group. A few of our clients saw the quality of the ham comms and got licensed themselves.

The commercial tour business became a victim of the 2008 economic downturn. Most of my 4-WHEELING friends are hams, so we use mainly VHF on our outings.

I'm active in other aspects of ham radio, but not so much on HF--partly because of antenna considerations and partly because of too many sad hams and lids.

 

[kayn1n32008]

I have had an interest in radio/electronics since I was a kid in the 1950's.

I didn't become a ham until the 1980's primarily because of the *BS* antiquated licensing requirements (code) and the testing protocols at the FCC office.

What pushed me over the edge the usefulness of ham radio in off highway (4-WHEELING) driving. I was leading commercial 4WD tours as a side gig and we used CB for communication because it didn't require a license and the equipment was widely available and not very technical. But CB was also plagued with mistreatments shooting skip. This was the "BC" era (before cellphones) I needed a better tool that provided a higher lever of reliability.

I begrudgingly learned the code and got my Technician license, quickly followed by a General upgrade. I incorporated ham radio into my 4WD tours (my partner was also a ham). We still used CB for our clients, but we now had reliable comms between the front and back of the group. A few of our clients saw the quality of the ham comms and got licensed themselves.

The commercial tour business became a victim of the 2008 economic downturn. Most of my 4-WHEELING friends are hams, so we use mainly VHF on our outings.

I'm active in other aspects of ham radio, but not so much on HF--partly because of antenna considerations and partly because of too many sad hams and lids.

Nice to see you do stuff in the hobby.

Your spot on about the 'sad ham' I, for a variety of reasons, became 'disillusioned' with a lot of people in the hobby. A lot of it, is how stuck in the past many of them are. Being in my 40's, I'm a 'young' ham, but I have been involved since I was in my mid teens. My biggest gripe is those that think hamradio is 'cutting edge'. It isn't, and hasn't been since the early 90's. We have band plans that are stuck in the 90's. RAC just updated the 2m plan to go from 30KHz steps to 15KHz steps, and added 'digital voice'. In my province, we have been doing 15KHz channels for many years. I won't even start on the hams that are 'Still experimenting with analogue' or 'digital sucks, I don't/won't/can't ever do anything but 5kHz analogue.'

I'm envious of groups like the Puget Sound Data Ring.

 

[Spider255]

I agree that Ham radio is stuck in the past. although saying that we do have DMR and network comms however this should not replace analog FM nor SSB but I do agree things do need changing to bring Ham radio up to date. I will say that Ham radio is not supposed to be cutting edge and I think too many forget what the hobby is about which is science, education and learning... radio waves are a natural thing and there should always be a place for analog FM/SSB on all bands, not just on HF so that the experimental scientific side of the hobby can continue, more importantly simplex operations and even digital modes can be included with simplex operations.

We do need to make the hobby more appealing and enticing for the next generation of Hams... I haven't heard one single person coming up with ideas to make the hobby more exciting and enticing for the next generation of Hams and I do not think Zello is the answer and ditching RF radio. Remember Ham Radio is not CB, it was not intended to be a messenger chat channel. At the rate the hobby is going its just going to become messenger.

I think DMR is brilliant although in my opinion I think it could be organized better so that everyone isn't all spread out with nobody to speak too and TG91 being the only active talk group.

The use of simplex also needs to be encouraged. There are frequencies for DMR simplex so they wont interfere with the analog simplex frequencies although you can also use DMR simplex on the analog frequencies as well.

Skills like electronics & soldering still have a place in today's world because these skills will always be helpful to have not just in the hobby but also outside of the hobby and I think having skills are still an important part of Ham radio

I also think its important to encourage outdoor activity & social events so that people aren't just laying about on Zello.

It would be helpful to share ideas?

 

[mmckenna]

I agree that Ham radio is stuck in the past. although saying that we do have DMR and network comms however this should not replace analog FM nor SSB but I do agree things do need changing to bring Ham radio up to date. I will say that Ham radio is not supposed to be cutting edge and I think too many forget what the hobby is about which is science, education and learning... radio waves are a natural thing and there should always be a place for analog FM/SSB on all bands, not just on HF so that the experimental scientific side of the hobby can continue, more importantly simplex operations and even digital modes can be included with simplex operations.

I agree. There's a number of goals of the amateur radio service. Here in the USA, they've got them spelled out in the FCC rules:

§ 97.1 Basis and purpose.​

The rules and regulations in this part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles:​

​

(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.​

(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art.​

(c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communication and technical phases of the art.​

(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.​

(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill.​

I've never looked at the UK rules to see what their version is.

I think amateur radio operators should periodically visit this part of the rules and use it as a gauge to determine how well we are using the spectrum we've been given.

We do need to make the hobby more appealing and enticing for the next generation of Hams... I haven't heard one single person coming up with ideas to make the hobby more exciting and enticing for the next generation of Hams and I do not think Zello is the answer and ditching RF radio. Remember Ham Radio is not CB, it was not intended to be a messenger chat channel. At the rate the hobby is going its just going to become messenger.

It's a technical hobby. It can be difficult to make technology "fun" for everyone. It's a tool and it depends on how it's used.
But finding a way to make amateur relevant again is the challenge. Amateur radio has its place in emergencies, but (at least around me) public safety rarely relies on amateur radio for any sort of emergency communications. Technology available to them have surpassed what amateurs can provide.

Maybe the solution -is- to make it more about a message/chat type radio service for those that want something more than what they currently have. The spectrum is not being used efficiently, and that's going to catch up with us at some point. Better to have someone using it than it sitting idle.

The idea about an entry level/limited access class is worth considering. You can't get people interested in the hobby if there isn't a way for them to experience it themselves. Access to it might generate a desire to learn more.

Skills like electronics & soldering still have a place in today's world because these skills will always be helpful to have not just in the hobby but also outside of the hobby and I think having skills are still an important part of Ham radio

Many years back, there was a lot of effort put into introducing amateur radio to the "Maker" community. That attracted a lot of people that wanted to learn new skills. That boosted the number of new licensees for a while. I know of a few people that got into ham radio via the "Maker" route. But it didn't stick with most of them.

I also think its important to encourage outdoor activity & social events so that people aren't just laying about on Zello.

It would be helpful to share ideas?

Yes. Get out of the shack and enjoy the great outdoors.

 

[Spider255]

Its kinda like saying science isn't relevant anymore.... I guess the hobby is a past time and we are seeing the end of it unfortunately like many things in modern times. All good things have to come to an end at some point.

We grew up with radio, walkie talkies etc etc and the newer generation have grown up with internet and smart phones so I guess there isn't really anything that can be done with RF "real radio" to entice todays generation and the next into using actual radio. I am starting to accept the hobby most likely will be a messenger service then fizzle out into nothing after that. From everybody I've spoken too so far, its clear nobody cares about V/UHF which is a shame.

HF will always be there for a good while yet and I'm hoping DMR will stay somewhat active. At least with DMR I can still use antennas and other things the same way as traditional analog FM V/UHF Radios. The only thing I don't like about DMR is that anybody can use your DMR I.D maliciously.

These days during emergencies, nobody will be looking for Hams for help at least here in the UK they wont so that side of things is irrelevant.

CB is alive again over here, however I'd rather use 2 meters for local chat rather than 27MHz as 2 meters is much better for local chat. Its just a shame 2 meters has nobody on it.

 

[alcahuete]

The Tech test is already stupid Simple. At a recent VE session, there was a teenager that popped his Tech, and General class in one shot.

It is. But there's a reason GMRS popularity is exploding while amateur radio is not. The GMRS crowd, families who want reliable communication, etc., don't give a rat's behind what the colors mean on a resistor, or how you calculate inductance.

There are clearly people who are interested in using a radio, but they don't want to learn how to build one. And in 2025, they shouldn't have to.