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Will LTE700/C Block kill GMRS/MURS/etc...?

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Baylink

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As you may remember, a couple of years ago, Google bid sagans of dollars for a 700 MHz 'C block' wireless license. They lost, of course, to Verizon, but most observers seemed to think that they *wanted* to lose -- Google's purpose in bidding, they say, was not to *win the license*, but to gain leverage with the FCC to impose conditions on whomever *did* win the license.

Google wanted four:

"""
In a filing with the FCC on July 9, Google urged the Commission to adopt rules for the auction that ensure that, regardless of who wins the spectrum at auction, consumers' interests are served. Specifically, Google encouraged the FCC to require the adoption of four types of "open" platforms as part of the license conditions:

* Open applications: Consumers should be able to download and utilize any software applications, content, or services they desire;
* Open devices: Consumers should be able to utilize a handheld communications device with whatever wireless network they prefer;
* Open services: Third parties (resellers) should be able to acquire wireless services from a 700 MHz licensee on a wholesale basis, based on reasonably nondiscriminatory commercial terms; and
* Open networks: Third parties (like internet service providers) should be able to interconnect at any technically feasible point in a 700 MHz licensee's wireless network.
"""

They got the first and second: assuming Verizon follows the rules after buildout (and there's some concern that they won't: 700 MHz Update: Will VZ Comply with the Rules? ), then users will be able to pay Verizon their however-much money a month (I'm predicting $80 a month to open, dropping to $60 a month later; getting Verizon to provide your PSTN-voice termination service for you will likely cost a bit more)...

and then you'll be able to buy your LTE700 compatible handheld from *anyone*, in any formfactor they choose to build it, running any app that looks like a neat idea.

This has some very interesting implications for people who presently use services like Nextel, or GMRS/MURS/business band, and even commercial trunking radio:

All of those services can be simulated, quite effectively, by applications running on small handheld computers with wireless IP connectivity, and a carrier who isn't getting in the way. There are even standard protocols, like PTT over Cellular, for which I believe there's an adaptation for SIP/RTP.

And given the wide applicability of such devices, the odds of the "prosumer" segment of the market -- devices rugged enough and flexible enough for non-consumer user, but not built to go in a turnout coat or be rolled over onto while fighting a meth head, as someone put it in a thread yesterday :) -- expanding seem pretty bright.

Additionally, LTE700 will be being rolled out in the D-block, on networks *built for public safety*, so there will be high-end devices available as well, and those will probably be easily modified to use a commercial C-block service like the one Verizon will offer.

But even for people who can't afford $2000 Nextel r765's, or $6500 Harris Unity XG-100's, you'll still be able to load an (interoperable!) app to talk to such networks on your smartphone. Which leads me inexorably to wonder about the affects of this on business-band radio, just as cellphones have beat the heck out of... Timex.

So, assuming that Verizon's feet are held to the fire, I suspect we'll see a fair amount of development in this market in the next 2 to 5 years, and things will get very interesting.

Except, of course, for scanner listeners; since that service is point to point, we won't be able to hear any of that traffic at all, unless the network operators feed it themselves. :-}

Thoughts, anyone?
 
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Actually your post is kind of hard to follow, I'm assuming your are referring to the 700 MHz Upper C block and not the lower C block. VZO as a carrier wouldn't have the slightest interest in GMRS/MURS/FRS. then you mention a Harris Unity that would not be applicable to LTE technology, you also mention poin to point. All in all very difficult to understand the point you are trying to get accross.

the first LTE apps will be USB type adaptors for data applications followed by voice, most likely VoIP.
 

Baylink

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This was the money quote, sir:

"""
This has some very interesting implications for people who presently use services like Nextel, or GMRS/MURS/business band, and even commercial trunking radio:

All of those services can be simulated, quite effectively, by applications running on small handheld computers with wireless IP connectivity, and a carrier who isn't getting in the way. There are even standard protocols, like PTT over Cellular, for which I believe there's an adaptation for SIP/RTP.
"""

People who are already carrying smartphones will be able to use those instead of a radio service for many categories of use; people for whom a smartphone isn't *quite* enough hardware will be able to get something that is.

I'm sorry you had trouble following it; I did try pretty hard to make the thesis clear, and support it with the necessary foundation.
 
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Ok so your hypothisis is that with VZO providing the necessary backbone other app developers and hardware providers will want to move all mobile communications to LTE interface technology? There will be huge land areas in the U.S. that will most likely never see 700 LTE; there are areas that currently have no cell service, because it isn't financially viable. PTT for cellular customers is a very niche market, aside from Nextel which isn't a cellular carrier.

Users will determine their requirements and how valuable the service will be to them, using GMRS/MURS/FRS as an example is not a valid comparison. Consumers will still want a simple wireless technology that can keep in a drawer with no usage charges, that then can use for that next convoy to Grandma's house.

After reading your original post my thought was what has this to do with a scanning based forum?
 

Baylink

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Ok so your hypothisis is that with VZO providing the necessary backbone other app developers and hardware providers will want to move all mobile communications to LTE interface technology? There will be huge land areas in the U.S. that will most likely never see 700 LTE; there are areas that currently have no cell service, because it isn't financially viable. PTT for cellular customers is a very niche market, aside from Nextel which isn't a cellular carrier.

No, that's not *quite* my hypothesis.

It's twofold:

1) Nextel sucks.

I've been through 4 *models* of phone in 5 years, now, and I have the same, and growing worse problems; I infer overloaded control-plane channels because of the Boost market.

2) VZW 700LTE will have even *better* building penetration, assuming a similar depth of build, than Nextel has now, because it's lower in frequency.

So those people who *want* to leave Nextel, but cannot, either because nothing else will penetrate their buildings and still have the wide reach, or because they can't get (or afford) radios that will...

will have an alternative with no licensing hassles, and a fairly large market for different *types* of subscriber equipment -- which implies that people will *make* those different categories of subscriber equipment, which seems like a fairly good bet to me now.

Users will determine their requirements and how valuable the service will be to them, using GMRS/MURS/FRS as an example is not a valid comparison. Consumers will still want a simple wireless technology that can keep in a drawer with no usage charges, that then can use for that next convoy to Grandma's house.

Sure. But I didn't *say* FRS, and that was purposeful.

The GMRS/MURS market, and itinerant business, etc, is a different story; a lot of it used to *use* Nextel, before Nextel started sucking so badly, and they jumped ship. I know; *I* have Nextel because I had 13 customers, comprising a total fleet size of about 100, and all but one of them have -- in the last 6 years -- given up, and bought their users cellphones.

Crappy connections (not coverage, they fixed that about 2004, and not customer service; that actually got *better* in the Sprint merge) are the reason why; if there was an alternative, a lot of them might take it... especially if it were designed for desktop dispatch, in exactly the same way that Nextel never has been.

After reading your original post my thought was what has this to do with a scanning based forum?

I'm not in a scanning-based forum; I'm in a *professional radio* forum. The scanning forums are down the hall, third click on the right. If that's where your head is at, then you probably don't have anything else useful to contribute here... especially since you seem to be misinterpreting everything I write, and I'm going out of my way to make sure it's clear. Sorry to take up your time.
 
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Well at least we both agree, you original post and your follow-on posts continue to make less and less sense, so a waste of time on my part.

So all this excersise was a "rant" against Nextel; why wasn't that included in your original post subject line, instead of GMRS/MURS, etc.?
 

Baylink

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Nope. Wasn't a rant against Nextel. But I'm about to start making reading comprehension cracks, and I wouldn't want to scare off all the thoughtful commenters whom you haven't already, so I'm done now.

And the strawman was nice, but no, I'm perfectly content with the information-content of *my* comments here.
 

Baylink

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> then users will be able to pay Verizon their however-much money a month (I'm predicting $80 a month to open, dropping to $60 a month later;

I was worng: they opened at $50 a month; that gets you 5GB, if you want 10GB/mo you can pay $80. Since having EVDO *on my laptop*, I had a hard time breaking 2GB a month for an entire year, and I do this for a living, I would say that 5GB is fine, except maybe for watching TV a lot. :)

> getting Verizon to provide your PSTN-voice termination service for you will likely cost a bit more)...

They haven't shipped an LTE phone yet; when they do, it probably won't initially use LTE for native voice, but CDMA instead.
 
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