SDS100/SDS200: Getting started with Trunked Systems

[manxman]

Howdy folks, and warm regards from the tropical Isle of Man!

I'm getting back into the hobby, having recently upgraded my 3500XLT to an SDS-100E, and to say I'm finding it complicated would be an understatement. Can somebody please point me in the right direction for some high-level steps to getting started in programming a trunked system, right down to knowing which frequencies to program for a Site? I'm guessing I'd use Close Call to get started with a frequency and any other visible data that comes with it (Talk Group, unit ID, etc) but there are so many variables involved with Digital that I'm a little lost.

Finally (and I realise I'm in no position to ask for help and make demands at the same time, so forgive me) please send me no links to YouTube. I've watched hours of footage of people navigating their scanner's menus and reading out what they see, but hardly any of them actually explain anything. A written list of instructions is usually much better.

Thanks a million in advance!

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

Hi there & welcome to the RR forums:
First I would suggest giving this wiki and this wiki a read to get a basic understanding of how trunked radio systems work. I'm not seeing much in the database identified for Isle of Man but I believe many of the emergency services in the UK are encrypted anyway so this may be why there isn't much identified in the database. I know TETRA is used heavily in the UK, which the SDS100 does NOT receive. What are your monitoring interests? If you'd like local input regarding what to listen to, I'd suggest taking a look at the UK Radio Discussion Forum. There is an easier to read manual for the SDS100 which many find beneficial. It outlines the basic operations of the radio in simpler terms. I've been an SDS100 owner for many years now. Though there is a bit of a learning curve to it, it is quite a versatile radio with many positive (and some negative) testimonials throughout various threads here. Welcome aboard!

 

[nessnet]

All I would add is that you hang in there. Many post here frustrated because the learning curve is steep to some and some even give up.

Once you grasp the fundamentals, it becomes much more intuitive.

 

[Ubbe]

Howdy folks, and warm regards from the tropical Isle of Man!

Try the Free Scanner Software page at Facebook by Steve Holloway. Facebook Groups
He has a program that converts the Ofcoms UK frequency licence database to different formats, incl Uniden hpe files.



/Ubbe

 

[manxman]

First I would suggest giving this wiki and this wiki a read to get a basic understanding of how trunked radio systems work.
[snip]
There is an easier to read manual for the SDS100 which many find beneficial.

Thanks for the warm welcome and detailed response @Whiskey3JMC! I think I've already read one of those wikis prior to my post but there's no harm in going over it again. Digging deeper into my lack of understanding I think it's not just a case of being new to trunked systems, but also the SDS100's implementation thereof. As you said further down in your post there's quite a learning curve and I'd even go so far as to say that it's not exactly intuitive, taking the 3500XLT's foibles (which I am used to) and pushing them to stratospheric new heights. Heaven forbid I put this thing down for a couple of months - I'll have to start again from scratch! 😉

I'm not seeing much in the database identified for Isle of Man but I believe many of the emergency services in the UK are encrypted anyway so this may be why there isn't much identified in the database.

I suspect the reason there's not much in the DB for the Isle of Man is more due to the fact that there's not much here, period. Some say we're 90,000 alcoholics clinging to a rock in the Irish Sea with precious little infrastructure between us, so I'm up for listening to anything I can get my ears on. I do (did?) travel frequently however, which is why I ideally want to learn how to start listening to trunked systems from a net-zero starting point; no list of known frequencies, no internet access, etc.

I've been an SDS100 owner for many years now. Though there is a bit of a learning curve to it, it is quite a versatile radio with many positive (and some negative) testimonials throughout various threads here. Welcome aboard!

That's good to know, thank you. I'll try to be conservative with the number of n00b questions I throw your way. 👍🏻

All I would add is that you hang in there. Many post here frustrated because the learning curve is steep to some and some even give up.
Once you grasp the fundamentals, it becomes much more intuitive.

Thanks @nessnet, I've spent the money now so I'm definitely going to hang in there a while. When I came to upgrade my 3500XLT I was actually torn between the SDS100E and Uniden's IC-R30, and I went for the R30 due to a number of factors. Then I came across the SDS100E on eBay and figured I could always shift it again without taking too much of a hit. All good so far but I wish I could get data in and out of the Uniden without having to use Sentinel et al. The Icom just gobbles up CSV files dumped onto its SD card so I don't even have to fire up my Windows VM - wish Uniden could do something like that.

Try the Free Scanner Software page at Facebook by Steve Holloway. Facebook Groups
He has a program that converts the Ofcoms UK frequency licence database to different formats, incl Uniden hpe files.

Thanks for the pointer @Ubbe! F***book is a no-no for me I'm afraid - I work with user privacy and practically have to shower each time I'm forced to use Google, no way I'm going near Zuck's Circus. 😏

I did find that program you mentioned however, but I don't think it gives me much more than I'm currently getting from https://radioreferenceuk.co.uk/ which cites Ofcom as a data source. Now if we had an open converter between HPE and CSV, that would rock. Skål!

 

[Ubbe]

Now if we had an open converter between HPE and CSV, that would rock. Skål!

Unidens favorite lists are the hpe files. If I change the extension from hpe to csv and open that file in Excel, or I use the free OpenOffice version, using tab delimiter format and then edit or delete the columns that you do not need and while "saving as.." you edit the filter settings and change from tab to comma delimited.

Depending of what program you have to read csv files to program a scanner, you should be able to read the file and use as a base for editing in the scanner program.

I usually export a csv file from that other scanner program and read into Excel to see how it is formatted, usually there's a lot of commas with blank values that then needs columns added in Excel when editing the hpe file to make it look the same. Sometimes it easier using that other programs csv file in another Excel sheet and copy and paste just the frequencies and channel texts from the hpe sheet.

/Ubbe

 

[manxman]

If I change the extension from hpe to csv and open that file in Excel, or I use the free OpenOffice version, using tab delimiter format and then edit or delete the columns that you do not need and while "saving as.." you edit the filter settings and change from tab to comma delimited.

Hmmm ... I just created a .hpe file by exporting a FL from Sentinel, renamed it to have a .csv extension, but it appears to be a binary file, not an ASCII / UTF-8 file of comma separated values.

On the other hand, the .hpd files maintained by the scanner do appear to be plain text, but although they're tab-delimited they don't seem to follow an obvious column-based structure.

 

[Ubbe]

On the other hand, the .hpd files maintained by the scanner do appear to be plain text, but although they're tab-delimited they don't seem to follow an obvious column-based structure.

My mistake. hpe are the export and import format which is compressed. hpd are the plain text files in Sentinel and scanner.

When you open a hpd file that's been renamed to csv you should get a preview in Excel and there you select to only read as a tabulated delimited file and nothing else selected. In column D are all texts for system names, department names, site names, conventional frequency names, TG names and user ID names.

Frequencies and TG values are in column F and user ID values are in column E. Copy those columns and then paste in another excel sheet that you read from another scanners csv file to keep that format intact. First copy and paste rows in that other scanners csv excel sheet to fill up with enough rows to handle the columns you will paste from the uniden file. You probably have to configure cells to have 5 decimals and set a maximum number of text characters to match the limitations of any other scanner.

/Ubbe

 

[natedawg1604]

I'd be curious what trunked systems the Isle of Man has, that are capable of being monitored by a scanner. Maybe post an update when you figure this out.

 

[manxman]

When you open a hpd file that's been renamed to csv you should get a preview in Excel and there you select to only read as a tabulated delimited file and nothing else selected. In column D are all texts for system names, department names, site names, conventional frequency names, TG names and user ID names.

Would you mind sharing one of those had files please @Ubbe? When I open an had file from my scanner in a CSV editor it appears as though it's not a tab-delimited format in the conventional sense since many lines have a different number of delimiters. I'm not using Excel but have been working with CSV all my life and am confident of what I'm seeing, and can't explain why it'd work for you and not for me.

The only explanation I have at this stage is that the first 2 lines describe the implementation, then you get 2 lines describing the system, then 1 line for the group / site, then the frequencies. The screen-grab below loosely demonstrates this but isn't a perfect example since it shows 2 empty systems, but you get the idea.

I'd be curious what trunked systems the Isle of Man has, that are capable of being monitored by a scanner. Maybe post an update when you figure this out.

Will do. We have an annual motorsport event that's staffed by over 500 Marshalls and I'm pretty sure the radios being used are trunked, but also very probably encrypted. There's some light industry too, and public transport. Nothing really fascinating in and of itself, but possibly useful as a test-bed for learning more about the SDS-100E.

 

[ProScan]

On the other hand, the .hpd files maintained by the scanner do appear to be plain text, but although they're tab-delimited they don't seem to follow an obvious column-based structure.

The reason for that is because each line is not the same type. As you know, It could be Convention, Trunk, FleetMap, DQKs_Status, C-Group, T-Group, Rectangle, Site, etc. The parameters associated with each type are different and so are the amounts. A T-Group type may have 9 parameters and a DQKs_Status type may have 101 parameters. Look at any of the types and they do align. Take the C-Freq type. The parameters are aligned.

 

[FIRE321FIGHTER1985]

Just hang in there. Some out there will help you get through this. I have a pro-106 and over many posts I learned how to program a few aspects of it over time. When others posts directions write the information in a notebook. That is basically how I did it. There are many on RR that would be happy to help in any way. Oh by the way I live in NE LOUISIANA USA.

 

[ProScan]

I take it that you want to program your SDS-100E with frequencies. Can you get the frequencies from your 3500XLT. Since the 3500XLT is a non trunking type, the frequencies are conventional and the setup is easier. I'm not sure if Sentinel supports the SDS-100E. You could try it or program the frequencies manually.

If you do go the Sentinel route then these are the basic steps:
1. Load Sentinel
2. Go to the Tools menu and click on Target Type. Choose SDS100
3. Go to the Edit menu then click on Edit Favorites List. Click the New Favorites List button or choose an existing list. Type in a name for the Favorites and hit OK
4. Click the green Add icon then type in name for the system
5. Choose Conventional system type. Assuming the system is conventional because you were using a non trunking scanner before
6. Click the newly created system on the left side
7. Click the green Add icon (below where it says Departments)
8. Click the newly created department on the left side.
9. Click the green Add icon (below where it says Channels)
10. Edit the channel
11. After done editing the channels, close the Favorites List and hit Yes when prompted to save the Favorites List
12. Before writing the Favorites to the scanner, put the scanner in Mass Storage mode

 

[manxman]

The reason for that is because each line is not the same type.

Forgive me, but I was under the impression that a CSV file represented tabular data, and that each line is expected to have the same number of delimiters (i.e. columns) as the header. Without this it's just a text file.

I understand your point about different systems having different data parameters, for example P25 versus NXDN, but when we use tabular files to represent such data we normally employ one column per parameter, leaving out those columns whose parameters aren't relevant to the data being described. Consider this example file, an export from my IC-R30: [bigger]



I do appreciate that the IC-R30 is organised in a simpler way than the SDS-100 and that makes it easier to use CSV format for the contents - we'd probably need hundreds of columns to represent SDS-100 system data using a single flat file ... or we'd use a series of different files with one of them serving as a look-up. This is probably what's going on with .HPE, but it's a proprietary, closed format, not true tabular data.

I'm not sure if Sentinel supports the SDS-100E. You could try it or program the frequencies manually.
If you do go the Sentinel route then these are the basic steps:

Sentinel does support the SDS-100E (or, more precisely, it doesn't make a distinction between that and the SDS-100) but I expect a higher feature set for 2021. Sure, I can sit there and manually type in several thousand channels, but life is short and such manual labour destroys the soul when every other piece of software outside of my Radio hobby has export / import functions. Also, having gotten all my data in there, I'd expect to be able to move it around using drag & drop, like shuffling groups between systems, or at least copy & paste. I find it baffling that Sentinel made it out into the wild with such a minimal feature set, let alone as the only official companion offering for a device costing hundreds.

 

[Ubbe]

and can't explain why it'd work for you and not for me.

I see nothing wrong with your file. System names and department names do not have any frequencies associated to them, you will only have a "On" or similar in the column for those. In your D column you have your conventional channel names and their frequencies in column F. Everything checks out in your csv file and are exactly what I get. I can't see it being any more simpler and clearer than that and is an easy copy and paste to any other kind of other scanner editor, if you import that to excel as well.

Every scanner will have different features and functions so it's impossible to use any other data, maybe modulation mode then if the syntax are the same, so only name tags and frequency and TG's can be reused.

There's a different Sentinel version for SDS100E that's incompatible with the other versions, that might be related to that E scanners do not have any blocked frequency ranges for cellular.

Please explain how you would use a hpd to csv converter and it might be some other solution to it or I could try the procedure if you name what program or scanner that would use that csv file.

If you plan to find out what frequencies that are in use at the Isle of Man TT race then CloseCall will not work as that only has a 100-200 meter range and will also have problems working at a multifrequency transmit tower. Whistlers signal stalker system are probably a much better way to find out what unknown frequencies are in use as it has a much better sensitivity but to the cost of speed. Without that you will have to do frequency searches in suspected frequency bands with a scanner or if a laptop and SDR dongle are available you can have that do searches at a much higher search rate than any scanner. It will be more than a 10MHz/sec capability using a SDR dongle.

/Ubbe

 

[nessnet]

[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the pointer @Ubbe! F***book is a no-no for me I'm afraid - I work with user privacy and practically have to shower each time I'm forced to use Google, no way I'm going near Zuck's Circus. 😏
[/QUOTE]

Use Tor??

 

[manxman]

Morning Ubbe!

I see nothing wrong with your file. System names and department names do not have any frequencies associated to them, you will only have a "On" or similar in the column for those.

The only thing that's 'wrong' with it is that it's not a CSV file, no matter what extension you give it. In a true CSV file each column has the same purpose, regardless of which line you're on - apart from the header of course - which lends the format to tasks like import / export of data and manipulation in a wide range of programs.

I can't see it being any more simpler and clearer than that and is an easy copy and paste to any other kind of other scanner editor, if you import that to excel as well.

See my post above for an example of a simpler and cleaner format.

There's a different Sentinel version for SDS100E that's incompatible with the other versions, that might be related to that E scanners do not have any blocked frequency ranges for cellular.

I didn't know that, thank you. The 'E' version of Sentinel does indeed appear to be incompatible with the BCDx36HP version in that the former won't open the profiles created with the latter. Wonder why that is? Making me upload those profiles to my scanner with one and then download them with the other just seems mean-spirited. 😉

Please explain how you would use a hpd to csv converter and it might be some other solution to it or I could try the procedure if you name what program or scanner that would use that csv file.

I'd use it to extract data from HPD into true CSV so that I could easily move it to another system or device, without having to open it in an office application and visually fish out relevant sections before pasting them into another proprietary program and hoping I haven't missed anything. My IC-R30 uses separate files for searches, stored channels, and GPS memory, with each of those being exportable / importable via a discrete (true) CSV file. Organising my channels in a similar way across devices would help me remember what's what, which is getting difficult with the SDS-100E due to the way that the UI makes use of System / Favourite / Department names in some areas and hot-keys in others.

If you plan to find out what frequencies that are in use at the Isle of Man TT race then CloseCall will not work as that only has a 100-200 meter range and will also have problems working at a multifrequency transmit tower.

I'm not sure why the range would be a problem - I can stand right next to somebody using their radio all day long and also get within 20 meters of any other infrastructure component - but I understand why a tower might be an issue. Gotta be worth a shot though.

if a laptop and SDR dongle are available you can have that do searches at a much higher search rate than any scanner. It will be more than a 10MHz/sec capability using a SDR dongle.

I'll look into that, thank you. Is there one piece of SDR software that you particularly recommend as a good example of the genre? As a Mac user there I've not made my life easy in this hobby, which only seems to cater for PC users, and while running a VM is trivial I'd rather not fire up the laptop at all if I can help it.

Use Tor??

Hehe, cheers Nessnet. That would indeed be a solution, but I'd much rather not use FB at all. If everybody did the same then FB would just be an otherwise empty page of adverts, and we could all go back to using independently run websites that aren't filtered by one company's algorithms. Think of it as supporting your small, local grocery stores as opposed to getting everything from the same massive supermarket. Or just think of me as a weirdo ... that works too. 😁

 

[Ubbe]

I'd use it to extract data from HPD into true CSV so that I could easily move it to another system or device, without having to open it in an office application and visually fish out relevant sections before pasting them into another proprietary program and hoping I haven't missed anything.

Is there one piece of SDR software that you particularly recommend as a good example of the genre? As a Mac user there I've not made my life easy in this hobby, which only seems to cater for PC users, and while running a VM is trivial I'd rather not fire up the laptop at all if I can help it.

The problem are that the latest Uniden scanners need to use a more complex format, with a header for a system and a header for a department and a header for a trunked site. Icom are more or less working as a vintage scanner with just banks and channels and no trunked capability. Trying to use Unidens info for an Icom and reverse will need you to copy and paste in Excel or compatible program.

Icom and Uniden use the same amount of digits in frequencies but Icom use a dot to separate the MHz value and Uniden do not. Excel will need to format the frequency cells to match the file you convert to and then do copy and paste of the columns, Unidens D and F and Icoms D and E into the Excel sheet that has imported the other scanners csv or hpd file. Then save as semicolon or tab delimited format. You can also copy other values like the C-Group name from Uniden into Icoms Group Name field.

Other things like Icoms FM-N and Unidens NFM needs the find&replace feature in Excel to be used if you wish to also copy that instead of edit it in the target file. GPS positions seems to be in the same format.

Just open up the appropriate file and add rows by copy and then paste in multiple rows at one go and then copy and paste the individual fields from the other file that has been opened in Excel and there will be no errors.

I can't see any converter program being able to do an error free conversion as Uniden and Icom are so totally different in programming and use.

The frequency scanner plugin for SDR# are probably the only good program to search out frequencies.

/Ubbe

 

[manxman]

I can't see any converter program being able to do an error free conversion as Uniden and Icom are so totally different in programming and use.

Well, perhaps. Getting different systems to interact is something I do for a living, so I'm bound to have a slightly unique view on this.

The frequency scanner plugin for SDR# are probably the only good program to search out frequencies.

Thank you for the recommendation, I'll look into that if and when I go down the SDR route.