I just ran across this tonight. I do think it will be interesting to see what digital mode(s) will be popular even a year from now. It very well may be a "Two Horse Race" between DMR and YSF, with Death Star dying a slow death. At the end of the day, numbers/money is what will likely prevail. Are Icom and Kenwood selling enough Death Star equipment to make it worth their while?
Ham Radio Digital Modes: Which Will Survive The Test of Time?
- Thread starter JASII
- Start date
TLDR - This is a summary for my area in California and my thoughts. Scroll on if you could care less about this area. You will not hurt my feelings. 
For ease of use, Yaesu Fusion wins. Just enter the repeater frequency/offset and start talking to enjoy the digital mode as even tones are not needed. Additionally, with Yaesu you can enjoy all of the digital on voice which definitely improves the audio, or split it with data at the same time to observe the other stations callsign as well as their GPS location if they are sharing it. There is more to it of course if one wants to use the Fusion network, but for straight repeater use it is not complicated. The Yaesu repeaters can also be set to offer mixed mode, so analog and digital can be used for an area, just not simultaneously. Mixed mode repeaters are a significant factor to consider.
While DMR is now incredibly dead here in central California, it is popular elsewhere. There is also my numerous observations of amateurs not understanding at all what a code plug is, nor how to enter what was needed. Many would buy the same radio just so they could use a shared code plug. What also worked to kill DMR here was the buffoon who built out a linked DMR repeater system. He requested people pay on a monthly basis just to get the information needed in order to program their radios and use his system...which someone else mostly paid for. He is definitely not an asset to the amateur radio community and in the past two years I have only heard him and his buddy using it. Pathetic is the correct word to describe it.
P25 is not going away here in California. The actual users enjoy the commercial radios from handhelds to mobiles. As to cost, one can spend under $100 to thousands of dollars just for a handheld, so it can be easy to get in on the fun with plenty of room to grow...if you want. It is not necessary. There are decent linked systems at least here in the northern California (everything north of Los Angeles) area that will eventually be passed along and continued. Hell, even I own a Motorola Quantar which I picked up for less than $800. (That is a good price for those that don't know. Even for a repeater that is a good price.) P25 repeaters are often configured for mixed mode allowing both analog and digital on the same repeater. I will venture that P25 is not as popular as it could be due to the "black box" programming aspect of Moto software along with the cost. Add to that the codeplug configuration and some hams may have a stroke on the spot just looking at the CPS tree. I am not faulting Motorola here, as that software is meant for professional radios and not for Johnny Enduser. Truth be told, the "Help" window for CPS is fantastic. The answers to my questions were already waiting for me.
D-Star I don't see going away due to the die hard users and the new one's that join the fold. The club I am with plan to put three D-Star repeaters we posses online in the near future, but they are in line behind other projects and not the favored child.
Anyways, that's my area which I am sure is not the same elsewhere. I am fine with all of the modes sticking around. None of them going away in the next year, nor five or 10 years. Ultimately, analog is king and always will be. We can all enjoy using the "party line" as well as having fun with a particular digital mode. I really do not see any one of these going away unless the manufacturer actually drops their line/mode. Even if that happens there will still be plenty of in use repeaters and radios already out there and many hams are cheap as frugal like me, or should I say don't see a need to throw a working radio and repeater system into the garbage just because the Mfg. killed the line.
If you made it this far...remember there is the Bigger Picture beyond one's geopolitical borders. Some modes are extremely popular/dominant in certain countries.
For ease of use, Yaesu Fusion wins. Just enter the repeater frequency/offset and start talking to enjoy the digital mode as even tones are not needed. Additionally, with Yaesu you can enjoy all of the digital on voice which definitely improves the audio, or split it with data at the same time to observe the other stations callsign as well as their GPS location if they are sharing it. There is more to it of course if one wants to use the Fusion network, but for straight repeater use it is not complicated. The Yaesu repeaters can also be set to offer mixed mode, so analog and digital can be used for an area, just not simultaneously. Mixed mode repeaters are a significant factor to consider.
While DMR is now incredibly dead here in central California, it is popular elsewhere. There is also my numerous observations of amateurs not understanding at all what a code plug is, nor how to enter what was needed. Many would buy the same radio just so they could use a shared code plug. What also worked to kill DMR here was the buffoon who built out a linked DMR repeater system. He requested people pay on a monthly basis just to get the information needed in order to program their radios and use his system...which someone else mostly paid for. He is definitely not an asset to the amateur radio community and in the past two years I have only heard him and his buddy using it. Pathetic is the correct word to describe it.
P25 is not going away here in California. The actual users enjoy the commercial radios from handhelds to mobiles. As to cost, one can spend under $100 to thousands of dollars just for a handheld, so it can be easy to get in on the fun with plenty of room to grow...if you want. It is not necessary. There are decent linked systems at least here in the northern California (everything north of Los Angeles) area that will eventually be passed along and continued. Hell, even I own a Motorola Quantar which I picked up for less than $800. (That is a good price for those that don't know. Even for a repeater that is a good price.) P25 repeaters are often configured for mixed mode allowing both analog and digital on the same repeater. I will venture that P25 is not as popular as it could be due to the "black box" programming aspect of Moto software along with the cost. Add to that the codeplug configuration and some hams may have a stroke on the spot just looking at the CPS tree. I am not faulting Motorola here, as that software is meant for professional radios and not for Johnny Enduser. Truth be told, the "Help" window for CPS is fantastic. The answers to my questions were already waiting for me.
D-Star I don't see going away due to the die hard users and the new one's that join the fold. The club I am with plan to put three D-Star repeaters we posses online in the near future, but they are in line behind other projects and not the favored child.
Anyways, that's my area which I am sure is not the same elsewhere. I am fine with all of the modes sticking around. None of them going away in the next year, nor five or 10 years. Ultimately, analog is king and always will be. We can all enjoy using the "party line" as well as having fun with a particular digital mode. I really do not see any one of these going away unless the manufacturer actually drops their line/mode. Even if that happens there will still be plenty of in use repeaters and radios already out there and many hams are cheap as frugal like me, or should I say don't see a need to throw a working radio and repeater system into the garbage just because the Mfg. killed the line.
If you made it this far...remember there is the Bigger Picture beyond one's geopolitical borders. Some modes are extremely popular/dominant in certain countries.
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As said P25 will be here as long as public safety is on P25. Its solid equipment and keeps the junk radios out of the mix. My repeater is not mixed mode but know many still do that.
belvdr
No longer interested in living
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I run D-Star and would like to expand into YSF, but see a major issue, in my opinion. Using software, I've connected to 20 or 30 various refelectors and heard nothing. I did this over the course of a few days and across the globe. Then I started perusing the list and selecting ones with a status page. Nobody seems to be checking in on any of them.
The frustrating part is anyone can simply stand up a YSF reflector, so you end up with a lot of junk. With approximately 1100 refelectors, how does anyone find others to talk to? On D-Star 30C seems to be active much of the day, which helps in my area where hardly anyone is on 2m.
All that said, it would be nice to have one radio that can at least do YSF and D-Star.
On the same vein, I hear everyone talk about how this system is open and that system is proprietary. Lately, I've seen some comments around the web that says YSF is proprietary, specifically on a club page that hosts D-Star and DMR. From my reading, YSF is open as well as D-Star, except you had to use the AMBE chip due to licensing for awhile. Is that still in effect too? Is YSF really proprietary?
I'm not trying to stir the pot. I'm trying to understand the technology.
The frustrating part is anyone can simply stand up a YSF reflector, so you end up with a lot of junk. With approximately 1100 refelectors, how does anyone find others to talk to? On D-Star 30C seems to be active much of the day, which helps in my area where hardly anyone is on 2m.
All that said, it would be nice to have one radio that can at least do YSF and D-Star.
On the same vein, I hear everyone talk about how this system is open and that system is proprietary. Lately, I've seen some comments around the web that says YSF is proprietary, specifically on a club page that hosts D-Star and DMR. From my reading, YSF is open as well as D-Star, except you had to use the AMBE chip due to licensing for awhile. Is that still in effect too? Is YSF really proprietary?
I'm not trying to stir the pot. I'm trying to understand the technology.
Regardless of what mode(s) “prevail(s), a Pi-Star or openSPOT hotspot handles all of the modes discussed thus far in this thread. A hotspot is an “on ramp” to any mode you wish to use as long as you have a radio that uses one of the aforementioned digital voice modes.
Yaesu publicly released the specs for System Fusion. I don't know if Yaesu is charging a license fee to build System Fusion radios. Obviously, since there are hotspots for System Fusion, others have figured out the protocol for that mode.
D-STAR is owned, I believe, by the Japanese Amateur Radio League, their national amateur radio organization. I don' think they charge a fee to use the protocol. There may be some repeater-related features that are proprietary to Icom.
Any digital voice mode is going to be dependent on a CODEC. Does using a proprietary CODEC make a digital voice mode proprietary?
I still believe that D-STAR has features that are not yet available with the other digital voice modes popular in amateur radio. For example, Both D-STAR and System Fusion include a means of transferring data files, but, so far, Yaesu has only developed their pathetically low-resolution camera to take advantage of System Fusion's data capability.
D-STAR is owned, I believe, by the Japanese Amateur Radio League, their national amateur radio organization. I don' think they charge a fee to use the protocol. There may be some repeater-related features that are proprietary to Icom.
Any digital voice mode is going to be dependent on a CODEC. Does using a proprietary CODEC make a digital voice mode proprietary?
I still believe that D-STAR has features that are not yet available with the other digital voice modes popular in amateur radio. For example, Both D-STAR and System Fusion include a means of transferring data files, but, so far, Yaesu has only developed their pathetically low-resolution camera to take advantage of System Fusion's data capability.
P25 is very limited in Florida and Tennessee, where I split my time. I have the digital equipment for all the modes, but I enjoy P25 the most. I would like to see it grow more. I agree, the equipment for P25 is much better to work with. Everyone has their opinion and this is mine. Glad we have all the modes we do have.
N4KVE
Member
Lots of ham clubs locally replaced their 20-30 year old repeaters with conFUSION repeaters because Yaesu was selling them at half price hoping users would buy new conFUSION radios. Well that didn’t happen since the repeaters were set to mixed mode to accommodate digital, & analog radios. The club president is still using his Icom 2AT on the repeater. Here in SE Florida, DMR, & P25 are the digital modes of choice.
From an EmComm / ARES perspective, what is the likelihood of a “served agency” using System Fusion or DSTAR?
nd5y
Member
Zero. There are no Part 90 certfied radios capable of YSF or DSTAR that I know of.
Why would a public safety agency, disaster relief orginazation or business want to use amateur modes?
Ding ding! Right answer…
Hit_Factor
Member
We have DStar in the Hospitals and Berrien County Sheriff Emergency Operations Center.
MPSCS is the primary system. DStar is stand alone with Amatuer Radio Operators.
The problem with that is that nobody cares about interoperability between amateur radio and public service. Amateurs are not going to use their radios on the "served agency" system, and the "served agency" is not going to use their radios on amateur radio frequencies. So I'm kinda confused by what difference it would make.
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N4KVE
Member
Interoperability = analog.
My comment was not addressing interoperability at all. nd5y noted above "There are no Part 90 certfied radios capable of YSF or DSTAR that I know of." BUT nearly every digital mode Part 90 radio (and analog as well) is capable of operating in Part 97. So there is widespread familiarity with P25 and DMR within served agencies. Instead of having to explain to the agency comm officer re: ham-radio only modes, you say "P25" or "DMR" and may get a reply of, "Oh OK... that's what we have." And yes the details do matter and come later, but that initial, "Oh... the hammy stuff" barrier is not there. Also, I've heard from some EmComm / ARES hams who have had requests to provide input regarding "How many radios do you need? We can increase our [P25 or DMR vendor] order to cover your operations that support us."
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As a District Emergency Coordinator for ARES and a trustee of a Fusion repeater, I can say that we would never use C4FM for emergency communications at the present time. Why? Not enough hams in our operational area have C4FM or any other digital capability. The other reason is that Wires-X requires the use of the internet which could and will fail in a true disaster. Yaesu operates the servers and makes no warranty as to the reliability of the servers. Not exactly the tools you want for EMCOMM.
I think one of the other objections many hams have to Fusion is that they don't want to be limited to Yaesu radios. This may change, but it is true at the present time.
I personally think that Fusion is more useful than DMR due to its ease of operation. However, the same could be said of P25.
No single digital mode will become exclusive any more than there will be a single digital mode on HF.
By the way, the 60 meter band is an interoperability method between hams, FEMA and the military. Local government too.
I think one of the other objections many hams have to Fusion is that they don't want to be limited to Yaesu radios. This may change, but it is true at the present time.
I personally think that Fusion is more useful than DMR due to its ease of operation. However, the same could be said of P25.
No single digital mode will become exclusive any more than there will be a single digital mode on HF.
By the way, the 60 meter band is an interoperability method between hams, FEMA and the military. Local government too.
nd5y
Member
It only makes a difference to whackers. If you're a whacker you must have the exact same equipment and accessories as your wannbe "served agency" and your radios must have the exact same programming.
DMR, as it two talk paths per frequency. Also repeaters aren't Yaesu junk which gets stuck in transmit.
DMR is big in all areas I travel delivering for work. From Philly, DC area, Northern/Central Virginia and the Eastern Shore of Maryland and Delaware. The WR3IRS System has a large footprint of repeaters, so don't need a hotspot.
I only use the local, statewide or regional talkgroups. It always great to be able to talk with a ham from home. Like today talked with ham that talk with on the local repeaters on Maryland Statewide when in Philly.
DMR is big in all areas I travel delivering for work. From Philly, DC area, Northern/Central Virginia and the Eastern Shore of Maryland and Delaware. The WR3IRS System has a large footprint of repeaters, so don't need a hotspot.
I only use the local, statewide or regional talkgroups. It always great to be able to talk with a ham from home. Like today talked with ham that talk with on the local repeaters on Maryland Statewide when in Philly.
N1XDS
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Here where I live there isn't much activity except on few amatuer radio analog frequencies and DMR but it goes silent when dinner time comes around. I wish we had a P25 repeater here where I live I would love to use my personal APX 6000XE for it but the way it seems no one here wants something new.
To me it seems like DMR and P25 are the best long term options, I wish P25 was more popular but I understand the cost issue and the fact that P25 is not marketed for anything Ham related. I get the sense a lot of ham guys don't care about anything that isn't sold by HRO or DX Engineering.
DMR has great networking capabilities and there are many more options for DMR radios (from garbage to high quality), so I understand the relative popularity.
I hope that sooner than later, someone comes out with an open source SDR ham radio like OP-25 (maybe using a physical design similar to the newer Harris Falcon III stuff), that people could modify and improve upon themselves, and that could support 4 or 5 different protocols. That would be amazing!
DMR has great networking capabilities and there are many more options for DMR radios (from garbage to high quality), so I understand the relative popularity.
I hope that sooner than later, someone comes out with an open source SDR ham radio like OP-25 (maybe using a physical design similar to the newer Harris Falcon III stuff), that people could modify and improve upon themselves, and that could support 4 or 5 different protocols. That would be amazing!
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