A little bit of FCC GMRS action

[prcguy]

No, the org is a 501C.3 and charges money to use their system. The same owner also inherited a long time ham club and has taken over their part 97 repeaters and is allegedly closing them to "members only".

I don't have a problem with this on part 97, there is room enough for everyone, and as someone who maintains several amateur repeaters, I get it that it costs real money, but part 95 is not the venue to hog up all pairs and simulcast to prevent others from using the pairs. Part 97 is wide open and repeater stations are coordinated. Part 95 rules say everyone has to share and there is no repeater coordination.

This one individual and their "organization" does what AT&T/Verizon/T-Mobile does hogging up all the spectrum and buying up any competition forcing you to be their "customer" whether you want to or not. The American way!

My reference to the LDS Church is don't let a 501C.3 status fool you- the company may not show a profit but they are certainly making money hand over fist. They just get the luxury of not paying taxes on it the way an LLC or IPO traded company has to. "Pay your fair share" someone said.

Is the church of LDS hogging frequencies and simulcasting to the point of violating FCC rules? If so turn um in!

 

[MTS2000des]

Is the church of LDS hogging frequencies and simulcasting to the point of violating FCC rules? If so turn um in!

Re-read my last post.

The org near me is a 501c3. The assertion that they "aren't allowed to make money" was the reference to the LDS folks. 501c3 status only dictates a tax exempt determination, it in no way limits an org from taking in as much funds as they wish and running a business as well...as business.

So the GMRS hogs who own repeaters, link them up so they dominate all 8 available pairs then close the system to "paid subscribers only" is just that: a business. 501c3 is just a tax exempt status. The "profits" can go where they wish, just not shown on the books or paid to "investors"

 

[alcahuete]

a business. 501c3 is just a tax exempt status. The "profits" can go where they wish, just not shown on the books or paid to "investors"

That's darn near every major 501c3 in existence, not just the Morons. Sucks that they have to be like that tying up all the pairs, but that's what happens in an unregulated wasteland. It's just a free for all.

 

[prcguy]

Re-read my last post.

The org near me is a 501c3. The assertion that they "aren't allowed to make money" was the reference to the LDS folks. 501c3 status only dictates a tax exempt determination, it in no way limits an org from taking in as much funds as they wish and running a business as well...as business.

So the GMRS hogs who own repeaters, link them up so they dominate all 8 available pairs then close the system to "paid subscribers only" is just that: a business. 501c3 is just a tax exempt status. The "profits" can go where they wish, just not shown on the books or paid to "investors"

Call me selfish or childish, but if that was going on around here I would bust up their linked hog system. Either play nice and share the frequency or all of your equipment will become useless and nobody will be able to use it.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

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"..............Call me selfish or childish, but if that was going on around here I would bust up their linked hog system..."

I like the style !

My grandfather used to tell many tales of how things were done "back in his days." There were plenty of guys (ham radio was almost all males)-- veterans of WW2 that had stormed beaches in the Pacific, fought in the skies over Europe---you can fill in the blanks----

This was a different group than today; these guys were not going to put up with clowns like that ruining their hobby, especially after what they had just lived thru. Somethings they just dealt with, like how they dealt with Hitler, Mussolini or Tojo.

"When we had a "lid" we could usually change their ways with a "friendly' little chat"
"If that should fail, a pin into a coax cable fixed the problem instantly"

Lauri



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[MTS2000des]

Call me selfish or childish, but if that was going on around here I would bust up their linked hog system. Either play nice and share the frequency or all of your equipment will become useless and nobody will be able to use it.

With no enforcement, rules are merely suggestions. Consequence free USA is in, accountability and responsibility are out.
No one likes being told "no". Just scan these very forums for people's snarky posts being told there are rules and they get butthurt and lash out.
It's the world we live in these days.

Whether it's a hog tying up all 8 available pairs of GMRS repeaters. the Bowelturd dude being told his radio is dog crap and so-called FCC cert is bogus, the guy with the 110 watt Astro spectra running P25 on FRS/GMRS, the 10,000 watt CB operator, the rogue BDA jamming a local part 90 or cellular system, part 15 Chinapride noisemakers- the "RF cops" are nowhere in sight and the wild, wild west of RF is what we are migrating to.

Everyone will be shouting at each other and no one will hear a word.

 

[MTS2000des]

That's darn near every major 501c3 in existence, not just the Morons. Sucks that they have to be like that tying up all the pairs, but that's what happens in an unregulated wasteland. It's just a free for all.

Yep, it's what I call ConsequenceFreeUSA™. Sponsored by corporate America "no rules...just right" (oh wait that's a trademark of Outback Steakhouse. Don't hit me with a takedown notice)

 

[hp8920]

"RF cops" are nowhere in sight and the wild, wild west of RF is what we are migrating to.

Which is perfectly fine. Digital systems are very good at dealing with interference. Heck, P25's got 4096 PL tones. Look at WiFi. Everybody's sharing a handful of channels, we got baby monitors, video cameras, cordless phones, Bluetooth, cellular networks all sharing the same spectrum. Yet my home WiFi works perfectly fine at gigabits. FCC's gotten that message, look at CBRS.

There's no GMRS frequency coordinator and that's brought forth a lot more people running repeaters. They need to close down the old farts at ham frequency coordinators using some signal contour nobody knows about and adjacent channel protection designed for a Heathkit.

People running backyard repeaters don't care about a little interference if nobody uses the system. We don't use crystals and reeds anymore, changing frequencies isn't that hard. Besides, GMRS and ham aren't public safety, and don't need coordination which is often better than public safety.

Repeaters with more users will naturally take over their frequencies and make the repeaters with no traffic move. Everybody will be incentivized to move off obsolete wideband FM and into narrowband digital systems. More people will get to be able to play repeater.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

.

"..............Call me selfish or childish, but if that was going on around here I would bust up their linked hog system..."

I like the style !

My grandfather used to tell many tales of how things were done "back in his days." There were plenty of guys (ham radio was almost all males)-- veterans of WW2 that had stormed beaches in the Pacific, fought in the skies over Europe---you can fill in the blanks----

This was a different group than today; these guys were not going to put up with clowns like that ruining their hobby, especially after what they had just lived thru. Somethings they just dealt with, like how they dealt with Hitler, Mussolini or Tojo.

"When we had a "lid" we could usually change their ways with a "friendly' little chat"
"If that should fail, a pin into a coax cable fixed the problem instantly"

Lauri

View attachment 143405

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Oh my,,,,,,,

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Re-read my last post.

The org near me is a 501c3. The assertion that they "aren't allowed to make money" was the reference to the LDS folks. 501c3 status only dictates a tax exempt determination, it in no way limits an org from taking in as much funds as they wish and running a business as well...as business.

So the GMRS hogs who own repeaters, link them up so they dominate all 8 available pairs then close the system to "paid subscribers only" is just that: a business. 501c3 is just a tax exempt status. The "profits" can go where they wish, just not shown on the books or paid to "investors"

Wait, what?? You said,,, "and as someone who maintains several amateur repeaters, I get it that it costs real money".

So operating a GMRS repeater is somehow cheap and profitable?

They may be making bank selling custom T shirts and stuff, but site rentals and equipment have never been higher. And if you can't get a monster coverage site, then linking makes sense.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

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"........With no enforcement, rules are merely suggestions. Consequence free USA is in, accountability and responsibility are out......"

I wouldn't be so nihilistic- many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.*

Asking, nay, expecting -others to solve your life issues is ripe with disappointment. If you can't handle it, find an alternative. But kicking a issue about does no good except to vent your spleen and make you vain and bitter.

Anyway------------

Lauri

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__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

* not my words

DESIDERATA | PDF

Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.

www.scribd.com

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[MTS2000des]

Which is perfectly fine. Digital systems are very good at dealing with interference.

So just because a subscriber can deal with high BER means interference isn't occurring? So if a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound?
Seriously, as someone who spent 6 months of his life in 2021 tracking down some cobbled together BDA that put -85dbm of hash and trash resulting in echoing packets into a GTR8000 based simulcast trunked radio network, which cost $93,886 in labor billed by vendor and hundreds of my man hours spent tracking this turd down, please don't lay this crap on me about "digital systems being good at dealing with interference". Sounds like something someone from that "bear" company would say when tossing up an SLR repeater with flat pack duplexers and LMR400 cable.

Interference is interference. Physics of RFI don't change with the modulation schema. Some may be better than others at tolerating it, but the strongest dominant carrier ALWAYS wins. This is why spectrum management is essential not optional.

 

[hp8920]

Seriously, as someone who spent 6 months of his life in 2021 tracking down some cobbled together BDA that put -85dbm of hash and trash resulting in echoing packets into a GTR8000 based simulcast trunked radio network,

Ham radio and GMRS is not public safety. I said that. It's a hobby. The benefits are learning and training, and giving those benefits to the widest audience. Ham radio and GMRS are not maintaining public-safety grade communications. It shouldn't be treated as such.

Interference is interference. Physics of RFI don't change with the modulation schema.

Not true. AM is the worst in dealing with interference because it all comes through. FM has capture and is therefore more robust against interference. That can be mathematically proven.

When we got rid of AM-based TV and went digital, we repacked TV channels to allow for more co-channel and adjacent channel interference. That's where 700 MHz spectrum came from. TV channel bandwidths didn't change.

You have to evaluate the effects of interference in terms of the output and a lot of it is subjective. Hearing some other station on your receiver is a lot more annoying than blanking. Digital TV is robust against this (ever see 2 images on screen?) and we exploited that.

This is why spectrum management is essential not optional.

Again, the most productive spectrum in the world has no management at all.

So just because a subscriber can deal with high BER means interference isn't occurring? So if a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound?

Make a cell phone call. Every site transmits on the same frequency via CDMA. Co-channel interference limits throughput at a level that is managed, it doesn't make the system unusable.

Systems which are designed to operate with interference normally are also harder to jam, intentionally or unintentionally, shoddy BDA or not. Again CDMA and spread-spectrum techniques are widely deployed. Keeping the old way of doing things only makes LMR more obsolete as cellular and now satellite networks advance.

 

[buddrousa]

HP where did you get your degree and how long have you been in the 2way business? Just for information I received mine in 1979 passed my 2 class general radio telephone in 1978 1 year into school.

 

[MTS2000des]

Ham radio and GMRS is not public safety. I said that. It's a hobby.

GMRS isn't a hobby, it's a personal radio service for families and even...wait for it...personal business use (provided each user is properly operating under their license).

Digital emissions aren't currently approved for use on GMRS, just FM, so all this nonsense about digital modulation doesn't apply.
Rules are there for a reason.

By your pretzel logic, we should just do away with all frequency allocations because digital modulations will shield us from all forms of RFI.

The topic of this thread was about an FCC action against someone causing interference. I'm merely pointing out that this one fart in the wind NOV is a ripple in a toilet bowl when folks have dozens of IP connected repeaters all keyed up for hours at a time, preventing other repeater and frequency users from utilizing said spectrum as the rules (which you clearly think aren't needed) say everyone has to share.

I realize it's not in fashion to follow and respect authority these days in ConsqurenceFreeUSA™ but I choose to be old school because I see the big picture. Speaking of, DTV is a sham and was only pushed to clear the spectrum so the telecom cartels and entertainment content providers can push more subscription based services. I'd much rather watch "2 images" than nothing at all. Ask anyone in Philadelphia how good it is trying to watch channel 6 even with a proper VHF low antenna. Oh, just go pay for something you could get for free but sucks to be you that the NOISE FLOOR is so high that you can't RX anything. Well played. Most Gen Z's don't even know TV is available OTA and they are pre-programmed to pay for cable, streaming, etc so what was the point? Why not take it all off the air and let AT&Turd, Verizon and T-Mo have that too. Make everyone a subscriber! Pay pay pay! Except physics of RF don't change- hash and trash is hash and trash. DTV was the perfect example (at least ATSC 1.0). One needs an INTERFERENCE FREE environment to enjoy it without Max Headroom or the blue/black screen "no signal" constantly coming on.

 

[prcguy]

Ham radio and GMRS is not public safety. I said that. It's a hobby. The benefits are learning and training, and giving those benefits to the widest audience. Ham radio and GMRS are not maintaining public-safety grade communications. It shouldn't be treated as such.


Not true. AM is the worst in dealing with interference because it all comes through. FM has capture and is therefore more robust against interference. That can be mathematically proven.

When we got rid of AM-based TV and went digital, we repacked TV channels to allow for more co-channel and adjacent channel interference. That's where 700 MHz spectrum came from. TV channel bandwidths didn't change.

You have to evaluate the effects of interference in terms of the output and a lot of it is subjective. Hearing some other station on your receiver is a lot more annoying than blanking. Digital TV is robust against this (ever see 2 images on screen?) and we exploited that.


Again, the most productive spectrum in the world has no management at all.


Make a cell phone call. Every site transmits on the same frequency via CDMA. Co-channel interference limits throughput at a level that is managed, it doesn't make the system unusable.

Systems which are designed to operate with interference normally are also harder to jam, intentionally or unintentionally, shoddy BDA or not. Again CDMA and spread-spectrum techniques are widely deployed. Keeping the old way of doing things only makes LMR more obsolete as cellular and now satellite networks advance.

Yes FM has a capture affect and the slightly stronger signal can win. But if you have an interfering signal at your receiver coming in at some level, say -80dBm, your communications range is greatly reduced due to interference. The comms you used to have with a -130dBm noise floor are gone, handhelds won't work any more and only your strongest stations will get through.

My version of capture effect when getting intentional interference is capture it, kill it, bury it where nobody will ever find it then enjoy the blissful serenity of full quieting comms.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Wow, this thread took a deep spiral. Everyone getting their meds? Nurse Ratched is here to get you back on track.

 

[hp8920]

By your pretzel logic, we should just do away with all frequency allocations because digital modulations will shield us from all forms of RFI.

You might want to read about FCC's ultrawideband rules. You can transmit anywhere from 960-10600 MHz as long as your power density is low enough. This happened in the early 2000's, and is used in ground penetrating radar, and everybody's iPhone 11+.

Again, no regulation has worked fine at 2.4 and 5 GHz, and is being expanded with light-touch CBRS. With CBRS, they're monitoring the power in the bands and are going to stop licensing when it hits a certain point.

Directly to this point, no test, no coordinator GMRS has proven to have a much wider audience than ham, both for users and repeater operators.

People had the same arguments as you with CDMA in 1995, and UWB in 2000. How does a cell system with everybody interfering with each other work? People even said it violated Shannon's law. The people who ignored the old way and understood the math and physics of that made a lot of money at Qualcomm.

And ultimately, look at the UK. They're throwing out their nationwide TETRA system and going to LTE. Their train system runs off GSM with an eventual evolution to LTE. That's how things are likely going in the future decades.

 

[buddrousa]

We are not in the uk

 

[Echo4Thirty]

You might want to read about FCC's ultrawideband rules. You can transmit anywhere from 960-10600 MHz as long as your power density is low enough. This happened in the early 2000's, and is used in ground penetrating radar, and everybody's iPhone 11+.

Again, no regulation has worked fine at 2.4 and 5 GHz, and is being expanded with light-touch CBRS. With CBRS, they're monitoring the power in the bands and are going to stop licensing when it hits a certain point.

Directly to this point, no test, no coordinator GMRS has proven to have a much wider audience than ham, both for users and repeater operators.

People had the same arguments as you with CDMA in 1995, and UWB in 2000. How does a cell system with everybody interfering with each other work? People even said it violated Shannon's law. The people who ignored the old way and understood the math and physics of that made a lot of money at Qualcomm.

And ultimately, look at the UK. They're throwing out their nationwide TETRA system and going to LTE. Their train system runs off GSM with an eventual evolution to LTE. That's how things are likely going in the future decades.

You are seriously comparing short range (measured in feet in the case of 802.11 and +/- a block for UWB) with gobs of bandwidth to A narrowband FM wide area communications system with only 175 khz of bandwidth total for outbound (ok plus another 175 for the inbound side)? Of course you can cram hundreds of users in that channel when they all fall off within a short range of each other. In the case of 802.11, they are frequency hopping technologies with many discreet frequencies in the hopset. Kinda hard to do this on 8 UHF channels, don't you think??

You clearly do not know how CDMA cellular operated. It was not a system that was designed to be interfered with. For it to properly work the infrastructure had to control the MRs TXPO so that they all arrived at the same RSSI at the base station. If a subscriber came in too high in RSSI, it would interfere with the rest of the subscribers and was booted off of the site. As a tech back in the day, I could be standing at the tower but my phone was being steered to an adjacent tower so it would not overpower the delicate receivers that expected everyone at the same level. This clearly does not occur on narrow FM on UHF. All of the inbound signals coming in together at the same RSSI with a different psudo-random code is not interference, it is a carefully balanced and properly operating system. This is what the engineers at qualcomm developed. I also do not know of any US cellular systems that still use CDMA. They have all moved on to LTE or NR, both are TDMA based systems. The only CDMA system that may be on the air was one of the sat phone guys, but I am not sure if they are still around. Technology has marched on to better frequency sharing systems.

How are ANY of your arguments applicable to an analog, 25 khz bandwidth frequency modulated wide area repeater system with only 8 frequencies? What does Tetra, WiFi, LTE or NR for that matter have anything to do with GMRS? A better comparison would have been IMTS, which had the same challenges GMRS is facing, except not anyone could just throw up a system that hogged all of the available pairs for an entire city the size of Houston.

You clearly do not understand the differences in RF between multichannel wideband microwave based systems and narrowband FM 8 channel ones.

Also at the end of the day, it does not matter what fancy digital schema you use, ALL RF is analog in nature. Physics is physics.