AirSpy comparisons?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Voyager

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2002
Messages
12,059
Thanks of the suggestions. I looked at: SDRPlay, HackRF One, and HackRF Blue, and I still think the AirSpy might be the best deal (although the TX capability of the HackRF is tempting). None seem to have the dynamic range, though. I have to wonder what the cost of the SpyVerter might be, and if a package deal might be forthcoming down the road which would make waiting a better option...

I will also add that the Flex series blows the AirSpy out of the water in all respects, but it does cost a little more. ;->
(Of course, the Flex is limited on the high end of the RF spectrum)
 

jonohudson

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
125
Location
Bedford, UK
SDRplay RSP chipset

Just to clarify the points raised by prog, about the SDRplay RSP. The RSP is the radio which uses the Mircis chipset (i.e. more than one chip) An ASIC is a type of chip. Application Specific ICs may or may not have a high performance processor. The more application specific the processing function the better the performance for a given cost. The RSP ADCs are 12 bit native, (I and Q giving around 63 dB of SFDR in practice) - we quote them as 10 bit to be on the safe side. So I feel prog is being a bit hard on us. Anyway the proof of the pudding will be when we see some more independent apples-to-apples comparisons. We also encourage people to post their measurements and feedback on our forum on the SDRplay website
 

prog

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
73
Just to clarify the points raised by prog, about the SDRplay RSP. The RSP is the radio which uses the Mircis chipset (i.e. more than one chip) An ASIC is a type of chip. Application Specific ICs may or may not have a high performance processor. The more application specific the processing function the better the performance for a given cost. The RSP ADCs are 12 bit native, (I and Q giving around 63 dB of SFDR in practice) - we quote them as 10 bit to be on the safe side. So I feel prog is being a bit hard on us. Anyway the proof of the pudding will be when we see some more independent apples-to-apples comparisons. We also encourage people to post their measurements and feedback on our forum on the SDRplay website

Ironically, the RSP still relies on my own IQ correction algorithm to do work more or less properly, either with SDR# or GNU Radio :)
Airspy doesn't even need that correction to provide perfect filtering and IQ balance because it was designed to be a SDR, not a mainstream cheap TV hardware like the DVB-T dongles. Please notice that you get 85dB - 90dB SFDR in Airspy for some good reason: It uses a real Flash 12bit ADC. The RSP's 63dB SFDR matches the ADC in rtlsdr which is 7bit. It is still good, but not serious for the price, especially that even Mirics advertised the RSP as a $5 SDR solution: http://www.mirics.com/sites/default/files/MSi3101_new.pdf
;-)
 
Last edited:

prog

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
73
Thanks of the suggestions. I looked at: SDRPlay, HackRF One, and HackRF Blue, and I still think the AirSpy might be the best deal (although the TX capability of the HackRF is tempting). None seem to have the dynamic range, though. I have to wonder what the cost of the SpyVerter might be, and if a package deal might be forthcoming down the road which would make waiting a better option...

I will also add that the Flex series blows the AirSpy out of the water in all respects, but it does cost a little more. ;->
(Of course, the Flex is limited on the high end of the RF spectrum)

I can also beat the Flex series with custom hardware, but it won't cost $199. Airspy gets you close though.
 

michael77

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2014
Messages
5
I have been reading some of the posts in this thread with a growing sense of incredulity. The claims made by Prog are either ill-informed or seem designed to deliberately mislead. I am sure that the AirSpy receiver is a perfectly fine receiver, but the claims of 85-90 dB of SFDR for the receiver are absurd and misleading.

If we consider dynamic range, I am sure that even Prog would agree that the whole reason for wanting to maximise dynamic range is to enhance the ability of a receiver to successfully receive a weak wanted signal in the presence of one or more stronger unwanted interfering signals. If we didn’t have interferers, we wouldn’t really care too much about dynamic range. Many factors come into play to determine a receiver’s dynamic range and the performance of the ADC is JUST ONE OF THEM. If the receiver uses a tuner that pre-selects a segment of spectrum by the use of a mixer, synthesizer and analog filter, then the noise performance, intermodulation performance and phase noise of this tuner will all contribute to a loss of dynamic range.

Decimation trades off quantisation noise against bandwidth within the ADC, so there is no such thing as a free lunch. It is possible to get lower ADC noise via decimation, but only at the expense of reducing the receiver bandwidth. If the wanted signal is very weak, such that the C/N ratio into the ADC is dominated by KTB (noise from the source) and the LNA NF, then no amount of decimation will improve this. Unless the SDR platform is simply an ADC connected directly to the antenna, decimation will NOT boost the receiver dynamic range UNLESS it is already limited by the ADC alone. Correctly setting the gain can optimise the trade-off of noise vs intermodulation, but no amount of decimation, or gain control can do anything about phase noise and reciprocal mixing.

Unless the tuner uses $50k Rhode & Schwartz or Agilent signal generator for the LO, then reciprocal mixing is likely to be one of the main factors constraining the receiver dynamic range. A typical modern monolithic silicon tuner is most likely to use a low power fractional-N synthesizer with a 3rd order sigma-delta modulator, and is unlikely to have phase noise of better than -110 dBc/Hz at offsets between 10 KHz and 100 KHz (in fact, it is most likely to be worse than this). Now consider two signals each of 10 KHz bandwidth and separated by say 50 KHz. If the wanted signal is say 60 dB below the interfering signal at a 50 KHz offset, the phase noise and reciprocal mixing will limit the C/N of the wanted signal at the output of the mixer to 10 dB. If this represents the minimum tolerable CNR for acceptable demodulation (as an example) then the dynamic range of the receiver cannot be greater than 60 dB. No amount of decimation or ‘smoke and mirrors’ will improve this no matter what Prog claims.

When accounting for all other factors (noise, and non-linearities) , it is very hard to produce a receiver with an instantaneous dynamic range of more than 60 dB. Having more ADC dynamic range certainly helps, but for ADC SFDRs above 65-70 dB, the effect becomes marginal.

In a ‘real world’ receiver, the only real advantage of a narrow band ADC with >70 dB of SFDR is that it helps obviate the need for a well engineered AGC loop because the receiver can operate at lower gain levels and be more able to tolerate signal level fluctuations without crashing into the ADC noise floor.

As I have said, decimation to boost ADC SFDR at the expense of bandwidth is a useful tool but adding a narrow band analog filter and gain in front of the ADC gives effectively the same result. However, unlike what Prog claims, it does not magically boost the receiver dynamic range by 25+ dB
 

Voyager

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2002
Messages
12,059
What are the feelings about how fast a PC is required for the Airspy? I know the specs, but would a dual core running around 2 GHz with 4GB of RAM be sufficient? What sort of bandwidth can you expect from that?
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
I have been reading some of the posts in this thread with a growing sense of incredulity. The claims made by Prog are either ill-informed or seem designed to deliberately mislead.

I've been reading this thread with a growing sense of "infomercial" ;-)

What are the DR figures of the R820T to begin with?
Under what conditions?

Or does this info fall under NDA? :)
 
Last edited:

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
Read post #11.

That's all about the ADC, not about little Rafael's (mis)behaviour under tough conditions.

The Rafael R820T (yes this is just as much a mainstream DVB-T chip as the Mirics :) takes all the beating from your antenna.
 
Last edited:

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
"Prog" gave you the difference in ADC architecture.
The input tuner has no bits :)

RTL = R820T
AS = R820T2
 

Boatanchor

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2011
Messages
991
That's all about the ADC, not about little Rafael's (mis)behaviour under tough conditions.

The Rafael R820T (yes this is just as much a mainstream DVB-T chip as the Mirics :) takes all the beating from your antenna.

And therein lies the crux of the problem.

Some of these software engineers seem to think they can 'program' their way out of requiring any hardware pre-selection or tracking filtering systems on the input to these cheap SDR tuner devices.

Of course enthusiasts will buy these things and will hook them up to broadband base antennas because they are trying to receive that distant/weak signal. The majority of users will also live in relatively high RF density environments and may have cell, paging or broadcast sites within a mile or two from their front door.

No one should be surprised then when users start complaining about the spurious signals appearing on the spectrum display, blocking out their -115dBm satellite signal, or that distant ATC on 118Mhz that can't be heard because of a nearby 50kW FM transmitter. Or that they can eliminate the spurious signals by reducing various software controlled gain sections, but then their weak signal disappears into the noise floor as well.

There's no free lunch here folks.

IMD is a ***** too!
 

Voyager

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2002
Messages
12,059
"Prog" gave you the difference in ADC architecture.
The input tuner has no bits :)

RTL = R820T
AS = R820T2

So what does "All this gives a noise floor of -60dBFS for RTLSDR and -90dBFS for Airspy" mean? Granted, he didn't come right out and say that is a useable DR, but it was implied. Certainly the RTL can't be higher than 60 dB if that's where the noise floor is.
 

prog

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
73
I have been reading some of the posts in this thread with a growing sense of incredulity. The claims made by Prog are either ill-informed or seem designed to deliberately mislead. I am sure that the AirSpy receiver is a perfectly fine receiver, but the claims of 85-90 dB of SFDR for the receiver are absurd and misleading.

If we consider dynamic range, I am sure that even Prog would agree that the whole reason for wanting to maximise dynamic range is to enhance the ability of a receiver to successfully receive a weak wanted signal in the presence of one or more stronger unwanted interfering signals. If we didn’t have interferers, we wouldn’t really care too much about dynamic range. Many factors come into play to determine a receiver’s dynamic range and the performance of the ADC is JUST ONE OF THEM. If the receiver uses a tuner that pre-selects a segment of spectrum by the use of a mixer, synthesizer and analog filter, then the noise performance, intermodulation performance and phase noise of this tuner will all contribute to a loss of dynamic range.

Decimation trades off quantisation noise against bandwidth within the ADC, so there is no such thing as a free lunch. It is possible to get lower ADC noise via decimation, but only at the expense of reducing the receiver bandwidth. If the wanted signal is very weak, such that the C/N ratio into the ADC is dominated by KTB (noise from the source) and the LNA NF, then no amount of decimation will improve this. Unless the SDR platform is simply an ADC connected directly to the antenna, decimation will NOT boost the receiver dynamic range UNLESS it is already limited by the ADC alone. Correctly setting the gain can optimise the trade-off of noise vs intermodulation, but no amount of decimation, or gain control can do anything about phase noise and reciprocal mixing.

Unless the tuner uses $50k Rhode & Schwartz or Agilent signal generator for the LO, then reciprocal mixing is likely to be one of the main factors constraining the receiver dynamic range. A typical modern monolithic silicon tuner is most likely to use a low power fractional-N synthesizer with a 3rd order sigma-delta modulator, and is unlikely to have phase noise of better than -110 dBc/Hz at offsets between 10 KHz and 100 KHz (in fact, it is most likely to be worse than this). Now consider two signals each of 10 KHz bandwidth and separated by say 50 KHz. If the wanted signal is say 60 dB below the interfering signal at a 50 KHz offset, the phase noise and reciprocal mixing will limit the C/N of the wanted signal at the output of the mixer to 10 dB. If this represents the minimum tolerable CNR for acceptable demodulation (as an example) then the dynamic range of the receiver cannot be greater than 60 dB. No amount of decimation or ‘smoke and mirrors’ will improve this no matter what Prog claims.

When accounting for all other factors (noise, and non-linearities) , it is very hard to produce a receiver with an instantaneous dynamic range of more than 60 dB. Having more ADC dynamic range certainly helps, but for ADC SFDRs above 65-70 dB, the effect becomes marginal.

In a ‘real world’ receiver, the only real advantage of a narrow band ADC with >70 dB of SFDR is that it helps obviate the need for a well engineered AGC loop because the receiver can operate at lower gain levels and be more able to tolerate signal level fluctuations without crashing into the ADC noise floor.

As I have said, decimation to boost ADC SFDR at the expense of bandwidth is a useful tool but adding a narrow band analog filter and gain in front of the ADC gives effectively the same result. However, unlike what Prog claims, it does not magically boost the receiver dynamic range by 25+ dB

And of course there isn't a single word about the gain distribution, IP3, noise figure, power modes of the tuner and the full scale of the ADC. You are right there are many details involved, but you actually missed many more. Silicon tuners have not become viable solutions by magic. They offer a very high level of flexibility and can behave very well when designed and configured properly. This comes at the expense of very high complexity. Of course, pretending specs on par with an instrumentation grade receiver is silly at best, but hey that's your idea. I never said such. What we are talking about is the actual SFDR you can have with Airspy thanks to its better ADC and gain distribution. You say that the tuner will be the limiting factor and that the extra ENOBs of the ADC and the extra room for decimation are futile. Well, that's not accurate. The tuner is pushed to its knees in Airspy and its configuration perfectly matches what the ADC can handle. Get a unit and check by yourself instead of extrapolating.
In the other hand, evaluating the Dynamic Range of wide band SDR systems is more subtle than the single channel model you depicted. In an SDR, the more signals you inject into the bandpass, the lower the maximum achievable SNR. This means your can end up with a high instantaneous dynamic range for a sparse spectrum and significantly lower dynamic range with a high density of signals. This is a rather different ball game than the single channel, heavily filtered receivers.
Measuring the performance of wide band SDR systems with conventional receiver techniques is a moot point. While these concepts still apply to channelized receivers, their generalization to SDRs is much more subtle and requires extra tools.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
That said, I'm interested to read the first independed lab tests to see what exact specs you have squeezed out of the RTL tuner chip, which still is what the spy is 100% relying on.

What is the weakest station to be received near a very strong station simultaneously?

Theoretical threads about the obtainable DR of the ADC doesn't sell it to me.
A spec sheet along the lines of Sherwood,Farson,QST,Funk would.
I'm sure you have proud samples underway.
 
Last edited:

michael77

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2014
Messages
5
And of course there isn't a single word about the gain distribution, IP3, noise figure, power modes of the tuner and the full scale of the ADC. You are right there are many details involved, but you actually missed many more. Silicon tuners have not become viable solutions by magic. They offer a very high level of flexibility and can behave very well when designed and configured properly. This comes at the expense of very high complexity. Of course, pretending specs on par with an instrumentation grade receiver is silly at best, but hey that's your idea. I never said such. What we are talking about is the actual SFDR you can have with Airspy thanks to its better ADC and gain distribution. You say that the tuner will be the limiting factor and that the extra ENOBs of the ADC and the extra room for decimation are futile. Well, that's not accurate. The tuner is pushed to its knees in Airspy and its configuration perfectly matches what the ADC can handle. Get a unit and check by yourself instead of extrapolating.
In the other hand, evaluating the Dynamic Range of wide band SDR systems is more subtle than the single channel model you depicted. In an SDR, the more signals you inject into the bandpass, the lower the maximum achievable SNR. This means your can end up with a high instantaneous dynamic range for a sparse spectrum and significantly lower dynamic range with a high density of signals. This is a rather different ball game than the single channel, heavily filtered receivers.
Measuring the performance of wide band SDR systems with conventional receiver techniques is a moot point. While these concepts still apply to channelized receivers, their generalization to SDRs is much more subtle and requires extra tools.

I never claimed to be writing a definitive reference on dynamic range. I was simply giving examples to illustrate why your comments are either ill informed or deliberately misleading. You claim that the AirSpy delivers 85-90 dB of SFDR and I believe that is a ridiculously false claim. You seem to agree that “the tuner is pushed to its knees”, so if that is the case, BOTH the tuner AND the ADC would have to deliver in excess of 85-90 dB of dynamic range for the complete unit to achieve this level of performance overall. If we accept your assertion, we must assume that the tuner delivers in the range of roughly 88-93 dB of dynamic range if the ADC is giving matched performance. Let’s take the lower number and my illustrative example of a single interferer at a 50 KHz offset and a desired minimum 10 dB CNR into the demodulator. For reciprocal mixing NOT to be the limiting factor in delivering this level of performance, the synthesizer phase noise performance would have to be better than -138 dBc/Hz at a 50 KHz offset. Taking all of factors into account (tuner NF, synthesizer spurs, intermodulation etc), you would probably be looking to achieve around -144 dBc/Hz for the synthesizer alone. Are you seriously suggesting that the tuner in the AirSpy has this level of phase noise performance? Well, are you? That level of performance is in the realm of what is achieved by high quality (and very expensive) RF signal generators and that was the point I was making. If the tuner is truly capable of achieving that level of phase noise, it is truly impressive and I would love to see the data to confirm it.

There is no doubt that the presence of multiple interferers reduces the dynamic range of the receiver. I doubt anyone would argue with that. I certainly wouldn’t. I simply uses the single interferer example as a BEST CASE scenario to illustrate why your claims of 85-90dB of dynamic range for the receiver are absurd.

I also took issue with the implication in some of your earlier messages that decimation reduces receiver noise. It ONLY reduces ADC noise at the expense of receiver bandwidth. You now appear to accept that point. So the real crux of the issue has been distilled down to whether the tuner within the AirSpy receiver is truly capable of delivering the level of performance that you imply. I am deeply sceptical, but if you can show data to support this assertion, it will put the matter to rest. If you can’t, I suggest you get independent tests to verify your claimed performance or stop trying to fool people with ‘snake-oil salesman’ claims
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top