Amateur radio and out-of-band transmit in the news

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bill4long

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Yep, by not attaching your name and call sign to the news story. That showed a level of ignorance that sort of proves the point.

It only proves that they didn't know the regs, or didn't care, (assuming they volunteered information about themselves relative to the situation), but it doesn't say anything at all about their technical savvy when it comes to radio..
 

mmckenna

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No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of any means of radiocommunication at its disposal. If the FCC wanted to say sections of an HF band not already available to their ticket, they would’ve said that. Instead they explicitly said “any means of radiocommunication” because that’s what they meant.

Let me help you understand this a different way.

I'm not suggesting ignorance on your part. What I'm seeing is common in the amateur community. It's a form of 'kool-aide' that gets drunk and passed around to other hams. What happens is that a section of a paragraph gets taken out of context, amplified and shared amongst the ham community over and over again. Remember that most hams have never studied FCC rules beyond what is necessary to pass the multiple choice test. There are absolutely some that have taken the time to read (and more importantly understand) the Part 97 rules. That's good.
What I've found is that for just about all hams, that's where it stops. "I'm a ham, and Part 97 is our rules", end of story.
But that's not the case. The FCC rules are complex and made up of many parts. While Part 97 rules do apply to amateur radio, there are other rule sections that also pertain to amateur and other radio services. It's extremely rare for hams to venture into these rule parts. In fact, I don't think I've ever found a ham that has actually done it.

The part that often gets overlooked is that Part 97 -only- applies to amateur radio operators on amateur radio frequencies. The minute you take your radio outside the frequencies granted to you under 97.301 (and 97.401), you are no longer operating under Part 97. You've left your house at #97 FCC Rd. and went into #90 FCC Rd. Different house, different rules. In your house the rules may be absolutely OK with sparking up a stogie and putting your muddy boots up on the table. The rules in #90 FCC Rd are different. Doesn't matter what the rules are in your house, when you walk in someone else' house, their rules apply.

Hams also fail to read the other FCC rules parts that apply. Part 2 and Part 15.

It's important to understand that Part 2 is called "General Rules", as in they apply to many different radio services. They are sort of an over arching rules section that apply to many different services. Again, it would be really good for amateurs to read this section, but most don't.

One rule in Part 2 that really stands out is 2.405 "Operation in an emergency":

§2.405 Operation during emergency.
The licensee of any station (except amateur, standard broadcast, FM broadcast, noncommercial educational FM broadcast, or television broadcast) may, during a period of emergency in which normal communication facilities are disrupted as a result of hurricane, flood, earthquake, or similar disaster, utilize such station for emergency communication service in communicating in a manner other than that specified in the instrument of authorization: Provided: (and I'll stop my quote there and let you read the rest)​
Notice how they've specifically called out the amateur radio service again. This is the rules part that hams think they have in 97.403. Here the FCC has specifically said this does NOT apply to amateur radio (and a few other services).

Look, I get it. Really, I do. Hams want to feel important. That's not a bad thing. But hams need to stop taking one line out of one paragraph out of one rules section and stretching it into something it isn't.

As for this particular case, it shows a number of failures.

1. The agency had an OES engine, that engine would have a state programmed radio in it. That programming load would not only have the NIFOG frequencies in it, it would also have all the CalFire command repeater frequencies loaded into it.

2. The NIFOG frequencies have been around for nearly 20 years now. The feds have been hammering this into the heads of radio guys for nearly 2 decades now: "Program these into your radios for interoperability and for emergencies". It's extremely, highly unlikely that the agency was running radios older than 20 years. If they were, someone would have had to narrow band them back in 2013, and at that point, should have added the NIFOG channels to them. Failure to do so is a gross failure. But when working with volunteer agencies, often the radio "expert" is some guy with a laptop and a Baofeng. That's a whole other level of failure.

3. The specific agency is dispatched by Plumas County SO, and there are multiple repeaters used. It would have been simple for them to contact dispatch and get dispatched on a different frequency. The department would have also had CalFire command frequencies in their radios, and could have used one of those. Many ways to fix this issue.

4. The options noted above should have been known to the Chief. Failure to fully understand the radio system isn't a good thing in that position.

5. As I've said before, the hams did the best they could with what info they had. They did what they thought was right, and did what the Chief probably asked them to do. In reality, hams should know something about the other communications options. Yeah, sometimes it's hard to get information, but if hams want to be valued as an 'emergency resource', then they need to do their homework. Someone should have said, "Hey, why don't you just use VFire22? You have that in all your radios…." But that didn't happen. The hams didn't know of the other options. Ideally hams need to understand more about the communications systems around them so they can handle emergencies.

But, like I've said a few times, they did the best with the knowledge they had. The post incident report should suggest this and come up with a plan for addressing failures in the radio system, and training the staff to use the other resources available to them.

On top of all these issues, it's entirely possible that the amateur radio oriented news report glossed over a lot of the details that didn't provide the story they wanted. For hams, they probably wouldn't consider that, they just focus on the good that was done. That's fine, but for some of us, it raises more questions about training, knowledge and resources.
 

mmckenna

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It only proves that they didn't know the regs, or didn't care, (assuming they volunteered information about themselves relative to the situation), but it doesn't say anything at all about their technical savvy when it comes to radio..

True, but it does show a lack of understanding of the other resources that were available. It sort of goes back to the old addage:
"If the only tool in your tool box is a hammer, all your problems start to look like nails"

My challenge to those hams would be to study up on what resources are in their area. Study up on the NIFOG. Study up on the CalFire system.
Getting your ham ticket isn't where the learning stops. It needs to continue, and it needs to expand, especially if hams want to be an emergency resource. Simply being a 'radio operator' isn't enough. We're at a point in technology where we don't need specialized radio operators to work the equipment. Time for hams to expand….
 

paulears

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Forgive me for not totally understanding the US rules but in the UK now we do not have any standards that have to be tested, but we have standards that equipment must meet, if it was tested. Broadly our old specs differ only in channel width and deviation, and our system, even back in the testing days was a a visit where they tested the output power and deviation. Receive performance was not tested by the authorities. Here, we only have amateur radio to turn to for equipment and operators in an emergency, but our first aid organisations, St John and Red Cross have their own licenced business radios. The emergency services have limited stocks of their encrypted radios that can be made available to anyone commanders decide. In a real emergency our Government will accept any equipment owned by ’responsible’ people because very few radios do not meet their requirements for bandwidth, deviation and power, stability etc. Here, emergencies, as in big ones are managed by the counties. Each one has an emergency planning officer, an official. If this person needs outside help, they can call on anyone, who can help. CB and hams are likely groups because they have their own organisations, clubs and groups. They could mobilise quickly. In major emergencies they could also request help from town councils or anyone really. If the radios work, they and their owners can be used. No licence issues. The international ’in an emergency, use anything’ rule is applied. Nobody in authority cares or understands about performance certification in an emergency. Hams and others become ‘user groups’ and often the organisers contact details are already in the system. When the US aircraft blew up over the UK, the system worked. All radio owners were put into use. Help was requested and given. Comms firms with 20 radios on the shelf just stuck in a church hall with civilian groups and coordinated locally. Hams who could solder sticking antennas up, first aid groups, scouts, even mountain rescue groups all coming together. Our Government radio people on site helping and advising and clearing frequencies.

when we did the London Olympics, the Government temporarily took back some ham bands and used them for Olympics comms. A few grumpy hams but equipment was in short supply and plenty of the gear was amateur stuff.

So is Part 90 at the Governments discretion like here. If it’s really an emergency, anything can be done?
 

alcahuete

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What I'm seeing is common in the amateur community. It's a form of 'kool-aide' that gets drunk and passed around to other hams.

There is a reason it is spread around the community. I would venture a guess that the majority of hams no longer get licenses for the hobby aspect of the.....hobby. Whackerism is a relatively new concept. I have taught amateur radio classes for ages. I still teach them on occassion. I still participate in VE testing sessions when my work schedule allows. I can tell you that 75-80+% of the people getting their licenses are doing it for SHTF and/or EMCOMM. It some sessions, it was 100%. And sadly, the ARRL promotes this. Why shouldn't they? It is making them $$$ hand over fist in memberships, books, etc. The vast majority are there for CERT, ARES, etc.
 

DeoVindice

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There is a reason it is spread around the community. I would venture a guess that the majority of hams no longer get licenses for the hobby aspect of the.....hobby. Whackerism is a relatively new concept. I have taught amateur radio classes for ages. I still teach them on occassion. I still participate in VE testing sessions when my work schedule allows. I can tell you that 75-80+% of the people getting their licenses are doing it for SHTF and/or EMCOMM. It some sessions, it was 100%. And sadly, the ARRL promotes this. Why shouldn't they? It is making them $$$ hand over fist in memberships, books, etc. The vast majority are there for CERT, ARES, etc.

I'd been using radios occupationally for years before I got my ham ticket. In all honesty, I got it for the sake of having it as my practical needs are met by LMR and GMRS.

That said, I've found that you're correct when it comes to the majority of new hams. A friend of a friend just got his Technician and doesn't yet have the foggiest idea about radio beyond those 35 questions. His entire justification was for emergency communications. To be fair to him, repeater coverage is much better than cell coverage around here, but he has a lot to learn before his equipment will offer him a real benefit.

One phenomenon I've encountered is buying a Baofeng "just in case", and putting it in storage without ever learning to use it. It's about as useful as a handgun in dresser drawer with an owner that's never bothered to practice with it (or even make sure it functions reliably). There's got to be a way to encourage people to educate themselves and actually use their equipment, but I don't know what it is!
 

bill4long

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True, but it does show a lack of understanding of the other resources that were available. It sort of goes back to the old addage:
"If the only tool in your tool box is a hammer, all your problems start to look like nails"

My challenge to those hams would be to study up on what resources are in their area. Study up on the NIFOG. Study up on the CalFire system.
Getting your ham ticket isn't where the learning stops. It needs to continue, and it needs to expand, especially if hams want to be an emergency resource. Simply being a 'radio operator' isn't enough. We're at a point in technology where we don't need specialized radio operators to work the equipment. Time for hams to expand….

Why? It's not the hams's responsibility to know that stuff. Just because they're hams. Some rando GMRS guy with a radio could have helped the fire chief in the same manner. Or some completely unlicensed rando. The fault is on the fireman, not the radio guys trying to help in an emergency, if you want to throw "blame" around. This topic is dead. Reasonable people would do reasonable things to save life and property with radios regardless of FCC regulations. Your comments are starting to feel troll bait.

When life and property are in danger, screw the regs.

The topic has run its course.

If anyone is ever caught up in the same situation I would hope you would do all you can, regardless of the FCC regs, to save life and property. Only a Barney Fife regs wacker sociopath would disagree.
 

Firekite

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"A station in an amateur radio service"
…is not to take any of those rules as preventing their use of any means of radiocommunication at their disposal when life or property is in imminent danger.

They didn't know what they were doing was wrong.
They didn’t know (or care) that you personally take the position that it is outside what is permitted by the regulation. Right or wrong is a value judgment.

If a cop is shot and lying on the ground, are you still going to tell me I am wrong to reach into his open patrol vehicle and key the mic to alert them that an officer is down? Doesn’t that mean I’m operating outside of Part 97, and therefore I should know better than to use Part 90 equipment on Part 90 frequencies even in an emergency, and instead I should leave the scene to go seek out somewhere with cell service so I can call 911 instead? If only I hadn’t taken those tests I wouldn’t know I’m not allowed to help! Bad luck for the cop, I guess.

Notice how they've specifically called out the amateur radio service again.
Yes, they pointed out that neither broadcasters nor hams are to switch to operating as an emergency service. It doesn’t mean broadcasters can’t participate in the emergency broadcast system or that hams can’t use any means of radiocommunication in case of an energy.

Look, I get it. Really, I do. Hams want to feel important.
Sardonic condescension aside, I’m certain some do. I’m certain many others won’t tell the fire chief to go screw himself out of hopes that someone online isn’t dismissive and condescending to them.

The options noted above should have been known to the Chief. Failure to fully understand the radio system isn't a good thing in that position.
If your educated guesses are correct, it might still not matter. One radio in one engine did not appear to suffice for their temporary needs to address their equipment outage. Let’s hope the fire chief and his guys use this as a learning opportunity to be better prepared with redundant equipment in case of future failures. Painting the fire chief as a doofus may be partially warranted, but painting the hams who helped him out as dumb whackers is not.


Yes it does
... part 97 ONLY covers the amateur radio service. Therefore, use outside of the amateur service is forbidden.
Oops, you accidentally cherry-picked only the part you wanted and forgot the “use by an amateur station of any means of radiocommunication at its disposal.”

It doesn’t any amateur equipment in amateur bands. It says any means of radiocommunication.
 

alcahuete

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Oops, you accidentally cherry-picked only the part you wanted and forgot the “use by an amateur station of any means of radiocommunication at its disposal.”

It doesn’t any amateur equipment in amateur bands. It says any means of radiocommunication.


This is actually really, really simple. All you have to do is write the FCC and ask them! This has been done several times in the past, and every single time, the FCC has come back and said that your interpretation is completely incorrect, regardless of how much underlining or italics you use.
 

Firekite

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This is actually really, really simple. All you have to do is write the FCC and ask them!
And one letter says your arm brace is kosher and the next letter says you’re a felon. Having a low level bureaucrat at the FCC answering web query to tell you what they think about it, for better or worse, isn’t really all that useful. Let me know when the FCC sanctions the hams.
 

alcahuete

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And one letter says your arm brace is kosher and the next letter says you’re a felon. Having a low level bureaucrat at the FCC answering web query to tell you what they think about it, for better or worse, isn’t really all that useful. Let me know when the FCC sanctions the hams.

Seeing as how those low level bureaucrats from the Enforcement Bureau are the ones who are going to be enforcing these rules and dishing out the fines, I would say their interpretation is quite important.

If you want to continue to be ignorant on the topic, that's fine too, don't contact them.
 

AK9R

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I'm going to cherry pick one point you made in your reply.
If a cop is shot and lying on the ground, are you still going to tell me I am wrong to reach into his open patrol vehicle and key the mic to alert them that an officer is down? Doesn’t that mean I’m operating outside of Part 97, and therefore I should know better than to use Part 90 equipment on Part 90 frequencies even in an emergency, and instead I should leave the scene to go seek out somewhere with cell service so I can call 911 instead?
If you are using Part 90 equipment on Part 90 frequencies, then there is no violation of FCC rules that require equipment to be certificated for the radio service where it is being used.

If you use the radio in a police vehicle to contact the officer's dispatcher, you are probably going to play 20 questions with the dispatcher. They aren't going to know who you are and you may not use terms and phrases that the dispatchers are familiar with. You'd probably get much more response using your cell phone to call 9-1-1.

But, if your cell phone doesn't work or you have no service and the police officer is in dire need of assistance, you betcha I'd use the radio in the officers car to alert his dispatcher.
 

ecps92

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but atleast the MDC ID or P25 ID will come back to a legit user, so some of the questions may be minimized

I'm going to cherry pick one point you made in your reply.

If you are using Part 90 equipment on Part 90 frequencies, then there is no violation of FCC rules that require equipment to be certificated for the radio service where it is being used.

If you use the radio in a police vehicle to contact the officer's dispatcher, you are probably going to play 20 questions with the dispatcher. They aren't going to know who you are and you may not use terms and phrases that the dispatchers are familiar with. You'd probably get much more response using your cell phone to call 9-1-1.

But, if your cell phone doesn't work or you have no service and the police officer is in dire need of assistance, you betcha I'd use the radio in the officers car to alert his dispatcher.
 

alcahuete

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I'm going to cherry pick one point you made in your reply.

If you are using Part 90 equipment on Part 90 frequencies, then there is no violation of FCC rules that require equipment to be certificated for the radio service where it is being used.

That's exactly right! What a lot of people (specifically hams) fail to understand is that with Part 90, the FCC licenses stations, not individuals, as is the case with amateur radio. If I go operate at a Technician's amateur radio station, my Extra privileges come with me, because I am granted the privileges, not the station.

The officers have no license, and no authority from the FCC to operate the police radios. The FCC grants the department a license, and within that license, authorizes so many radios, ERP, emission type, etc. It is the department's policies that grant officers (or whomever) the authority to operate the radios under the license.

So using a police officer's radio in an emergency, say if an officer is shot on the side of the road or something, is not an FCC violation. A violation of departmental policy? Maybe. But since you don't work for the department, you aren't subject to their policy either.
 

Firekite

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Seeing as how those low level bureaucrats from the Enforcement Bureau are the ones who are going to be enforcing these rules and dishing out the fines, I would say their interpretation is quite important.
you’re probably right. Let us know when that happens so those silly whackers who helped out the fire chief get what’s coming to them.

If you are using Part 90 equipment on Part 90 frequencies, then there is no violation of FCC rules that require equipment to be certificated for the radio service where it is being used.
I’m neither licensed to do so nor a member of the organization licensed to do so. As a ham, I am incapable of understanding what constitutes an emergency, and it I should know that it’s rightly illegal for me to interrupt public safety communications no matter what.
 

mmckenna

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…is not to take any of those rules as preventing their use of any means of radiocommunication at their disposal when life or property is in imminent danger.

Look, it doesn't matter to me what you do with your radio. It's not going to splatter on me, and I'm not the radio police. You keep quoting this same line from Part 97 to justify operation under Part 90. If you think the FCC doesn't bust people for operating non-type accepted equipment, you'd be mistaken:

Wether or not the FCC decides to do something with that is up to them. But they have in the past:

Wether they chose to enforce that in an emergency is up to the FCC. But it won't fall under Part 97, since that isn't where the violation is. The violation would be under Part 90 since that is the section that covers those frequencies. Specifically 90.203 and 90.427(b)

If your educated guesses are correct, it might still not matter. One radio in one engine did not appear to suffice for their temporary needs to address their equipment outage. Let’s hope the fire chief and his guys use this as a learning opportunity to be better prepared with redundant equipment in case of future failures. Painting the fire chief as a doofus may be partially warranted, but painting the hams who helped him out as dumb whackers is not.

In one of the earlier posts, someone said I "vilified" the hams. No.
And I never painted the chief as a "doofus", or called the hams "dumb whackers".
The hams did the best they could with the equipment they had and what knowledge they were equipped with.
My guess is that the chief told the hams to do whatever they needed to do to make things work. That would fall under the licensee, or someone designated by the licensee asking them to operate under the agency's Part 90 license. Part 97/ham radio has nothing to do with it at this point. The only violation here is that they were using equipment that didn't have Part 90 certifications. If you don't think the FCC busts people for that, see the links I included above.

And my comment about 'dumb whackers' was directed at those that will use this instance as a justification to open up all their ham radios and Baofengs and program them with public safety frequencies. Those are the "dumb whackers".

Those of us who work in the industry have pointed out that there is an obvious training issue here.
Either the radios were not properly programmed to have the NIFOG, CalFire or other agency frequencies in them, or the agency didn't know how to use the radios. That should be a red flag to the agency.
 

Firekite

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If you think the FCC doesn't bust people for operating non-type accepted equipment, you'd be mistaken:

Wether or not the FCC decides to do something with that is up to them. But they have in the past:
https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/AmateurActions/files/DOC-349397A1.html https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/AmateurActions/files/DOC-344269A1.html https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2005/DA-05-2064A1.html
I’m all for the FCC busting idiots playing on public service, commercial, or other frequencies, whether via CCRs, modified radios, or Part 90 radios otherwise used when not authorized (such as purchased used). I guess I can kind of understand why they’d sanction a vendor providing radio modification services to transmit out of band, though that’s not quite as clear cut. But those examples you cited aren’t of the FCC bringing the pain to hams or others who used others’ radios or their own in an emergency situation, much less at the direction of public safety personnel.

Perhaps the FCC will come down hard on these hams and make an example out of them for not only their sins but for being dumb enough to admit to them publicly. I guess we’ll see.

I’ve never seen it with my own eyes, but I’ve heard tales of emergency operations centers colocating ham radios, antenna systems, and even repeaters on site, with a goal of hams operating as an emergency service station assisting public safety personnel during an emergency by coordinating with other hams, which would appear to be a flagrant and willful violation of Part 2, section 2.405. Perhaps such tales are all lies, I don’t know. I’ve never been involved in such an operation or sought to do so.

Either the radios were not properly programmed to have the NIFOG, CalFire or other agency frequencies in them, or the agency didn't know how to use the radios. That should be a red flag to the agency.
Those are two distinct possibilities. They are not mutually exclusive to an additional problem of lacking sufficient communication equipment redundancy, which appears to be what the hams assisted in addressing temporarily.
 

mmckenna

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I’ve never seen it with my own eyes, but I’ve heard tales of emergency operations centers colocating ham radios, antenna systems, and even repeaters on site, with a goal of hams operating as an emergency service station assisting public safety personnel during an emergency by coordinating with other hams, which would appear to be a flagrant and willful violation of Part 2, section 2.405. Perhaps such tales are all lies, I don’t know. I’ve never been involved in such an operation or sought to do so.

That would be perfectly legal since the hams stay on ham frequencies. If the hams are operating agency radios under the direction of the licensee, that's covered under Part 90. At that point, it doesn't matter if they are hams or not, they are not operating on ham frequencies.

It's not uncommon for some county EOC's, hospitals or PSAP's to have a space of hams to set up. Our sheriff department office has a couple of J-Poles on the roof as well as a dipole to allow the local hams to operate in the EOC if needed.
 
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